Kurt Nelson 00:07 Let's do a little participatory game, Tim. Okay. And it starts with a question. Tim Houlihan 00:13 All righty. Kurt Nelson 00:14 How are you doing, really? On a scale of zero to five, and before you answer, before you just pop out 18. You know, just think about Tim Houlihan 00:25 it. Okay, Kurt Nelson 00:26 and then stretch out your hands, and on the count of three, we're both going to reveal our score with our hands. Okay. Tim Houlihan 00:34 All righty. Kurt Nelson 00:35 So, so for people who are listening on the podcast, we'll we'll say it afterwards, but we'll go there. Okay. But if you're Tim Houlihan 00:41 watching on YouTube, you can see it. All right. Yes. Kurt Nelson 00:43 If you watch on YouTube, you're you're gonna see us actually like do this 012345. Got that? Okay. Speaker 1 00:51 Got it. Right. Kurt Nelson 00:52 123, Yeah, I can't. What do you got? Tim Houlihan 01:00 Oh, five. You got five. I wasn't. My hand wasn't on camera. Yeah, I'm at a five today. Yeah. Okay. Tim Houlihan 01:05 And you're at a two. Kurt Nelson 01:07 Yeah. Yeah. It's been a losing crappy week. So Tim Houlihan 01:11 yeah, there's some stuff going on in your family right now that hopefully we got some Kurt Nelson 01:16 health issues with loved one and different pieces and lack of sleep and all sorts of just just stuff, you know. But yeah, on a on a one to scale, one to five scale, it's it's or zero to five scale, it's a two. So, and I I made Tim Houlihan 01:32 I made a new contact in Chapel Hill, a musician that looks like a cool guy to play with, and so I'm at a five right now, so that that feels pretty good. And by the way, that that that exercise is not supposed to be some kind of a trust fall exercise. That's it's I it's actually a real meeting ritual from a real company about a real department. It's the very first thing that we're going to unpack today. So hang in Speaker 2 02:00 with us, Kurt Nelson 02:00 and so here's the thing about that question, right? And so most of us open up meetings with "How was your weekend? and somebody says, "Good, or nothing really, or like, "Oh, I went, you know, we went to the Twins game. Yay! Okay, cool, great. All right, let's get going. Here we go, right? But our guest today built her entire philosophy of work around the idea that these vague, polite, non-answers are wrecking kind of our ability to really do great work in the workplace, and that the fix isn't about being more positive and going, "Hey, everything's a five today, even though for you it was, you know. But it's about more honesty. Tim Houlihan 02:41 Her name is Bree Groove, and we are glad to be introduced to Bree by our good friend Dave Nussbaum. Now, Bree is a senior advisor at the global consultancy SY Partners, where she's worked with leaders at companies like Target, Microsoft, and Pfizer. And she recently published a book with one of the best titles that we've seen in recent years, it's called "Today Was Fun: A Book About Work. Seriously, Kurt Nelson 03:06 seriously, that I like that, and that's in that's in you know parentheses there. So it's it's so fun. Welcome to Behavioral Grooves. I'm Kurt Nelson, and we're here to explore why people do what they do. Why do they do that, Tim. Why? Tim Houlihan 03:21 I don't know. You think I have the answers to all this stuff? Kurt Nelson 03:25 I thought you did. Tim Houlihan 03:27 I'm Tim Houlihan, and Bree's book. Breeze book. Boy, that's a tricky one. Is not a typical business book, and it is that way on purpose because there's a crossword puzzle in it, and the chapters are calls what she says their thought chocolates. Kind of love that with titles like "Your brain works whether you wear a suit or stretchy pants. And another fun title is "We Are the Defenders of Date Nights. Crossword puzzles and our health. We just kind of love all that. Kurt Nelson 03:57 Kind of love all of it, and you know I do like stretchy pants, so there you go. But underneath this light-hearted format is something a lot more serious, and that's the part that I think is really great. Now, Bree lost her mother to cancer a few years ago, and that experience of caregiving completely reframed how she thinks about work, and she questioned why work always seemed to be a productivity issue, and decided it was actually more existential than that. Her observation was kind of simple. I think when we look at it, this we spend five out of seven days of our finite life at work, and so what does it actually mean to have a good work life, Tim Houlihan 04:42 which brings us back to that check-in question: How are you doing, really? The most important thing you're going to hear in this episode is Bree's argument that leaders don't need to be cheerleaders; they need to be narrators, telling your team the truth about a hard stretch out. Loud does more for morale and psychological safety than pretending everything's fine. Kurt Nelson 05:06 We'll also get her take on AI in the workplace, which was refreshing, refreshing, and really not at all what-at least not what I expected, Tim. Tim Houlihan 05:16 Me either. And once again, we want to thank our special sponsor for this episode, Behavior Shift. Yep, that is Kurt's company, and Kurt's company is funding this episode. So thank you, Behavior Shift, Kurt Nelson 05:28 and and we're funding it because we think what Bree talks about in her book and on the show vibe really well with what we're trying to do at Behavior Shift. It's about understanding how to make each day fun and to push you forward in your life. So, it's our our journals, our modules, like Bree's book, are not boring old texts. They might not have the same kind of fun thought chocolate titles for the chapters, but there's lots of fun interactive stuff inside of them, and they help you to have not only a fun day but a fun and meaningful life. Tim Houlihan 06:08 That is true. So we encourage you to check them out at www.behaviorshift.shop or on Amazon. Kurt Nelson 06:18 Yeah. So thank you, everyone. We we hope that, like this conversation, you will get great value out of our tools. Just like this conversation that we had with Bree, and you got great things out of that. Tim Houlihan 06:30 Great tools, and we did love this conversation. Bree's funny, and she's sharp, and she backs up all that fun with real substance. So sit back and relax with a warm pour of honest self-assessment, and enjoy our conversation with Bree Groff. Bree Groff, welcome to Behavioral Grooves. Bree Groff 06:58 Oh, thanks for having me. Tim Houlihan 07:00 This is so fun that we get to talk to you on the podcast. Our previous conversations have been about book writing and book publishing and all that kind of stuff, and we didn't record any of that. So this is this is a time when we actually get to talk to you about your work, and so we're excited about that. But let's start with a speed round. Let's start with maybe maybe the most important question of the whole day. If you had to live a whole year without either your laptop or your mobile phone, which one would you give up? Bree Groff 07:32 Oh, Tim Houlihan 07:34 wow! Bree Groff 07:34 That sounds labored. Like Bree, go fast. You don't Kurt Nelson 07:41 need this. Speaker 3 07:42 is It's a misnomer of a name. Kurt Nelson 07:44 I will tell you that. Bree Groff 07:47 You know, I think I'd give up my phone. My brain went to, oh, but are you accessible to your child and your father and like the accessibility stuff? But if I sort of take take it as a theoretical question, I really miss the days where you could go to the internet, interact with the internet, and then leave the internet, and that feels a little bit more laptop-like. So maybe I would leave my device that's glued to me 24-seven. Kurt Nelson 08:16 Oh, there you go. Tim Houlihan 08:17 That's yeah. I remember Kurt Nelson 08:20 those days. I remember the days when we didn't. I didn't even have a computer. I'm that old. I was like, oh, that was. Oh, you're not that old, Tim Houlihan 08:27 Kurt. I am that old. You're actually even older, Tim. Kurt Nelson 08:30 You're older, Tim. So you can even remember before those. Before there were like things like television and such like that. You remember those days. So, all right. Enough of that. Bree, are you a coffee drinker or a tea drinker or coffee? Some other oh, coffee, yeah, yeah. Are you a particular type of coffee or are you any type of coffee, anytime, anywhere? Bree Groff 08:53 Oh no, just in the morning, first thing we make a French press, sometimes a mocha pot, kind of fancy like that, grind their own beans. Yeah, I don't think tea tastes very good. I like it to feel fancy, you know, if I'm in England or something. But I don't know. It's just like sort of a watery salad water. Maybe I know I've offended half your audience, the tea drinkers out there, just to the British Kurt Nelson 09:23 part of our audience. There you go. Yeah, yeah. Oh Tim Houlihan 09:26 man, they're they're just done now. Yeah. Give me another chance. That's that's great though. I I um I'm thank you for that that quick and that speedy response though on coffee. That was so double points on that one. I've had mine. Bree Groff 09:43 That's how you know. Yeah. Tim Houlihan 09:45 Third speed round question for you: Is it better to treat your brain like a Stradivarius violin, or as something that you just fuel with calories and caffeine to keep it functional? Bree Groff 09:57 Oh, you know me. Stradivarius. All the way, part of the book. Thank you for sneaking that in there. I'm a big believer that we that if you are a knowledge worker, you're a brain athlete. That's the part of your body you use to succeed and produce and create. So don't trash it. Yeah, and how often don't we trash our brains all the time, right? Little sleep, empty calories, mental health-you know-in all the ways. So, Stradivarius violin is the the metaphor I use to say a concert violinist wouldn't be playing on a cardboard box with rubber bands. You know, they they treat their instruments well. They play on the finest, and we should be playing on the finest brains, if you will. Kurt Nelson 10:45 Yeah, which Tim Houlihan 10:45 I I just want to put a little footnote in here, Kurt, before you get to the last speed run question. That is, I want to come back to that because I want to talk about AI and and the brain later. Okay, there Kurt Nelson 10:57 you go. Tim Houlihan 10:58 Put a put a pin in that. Kurt Nelson 11:00 Yeah. Well, Tim, you, you, you, and me both want to talk about that. All right, Bree. Last of these very, very speedy speed round questions: dress for success or dress in what feels good for you? Bree Groff 11:14 Oh yeah, tricky pants all the way. I mean, these are great questions. Yes, chapter two is titled "Your Brain Works Whether You Wear a Suit or Stretchy Pants. It's just I love the Kurt Nelson 11:28 title. I don't know. I think Bree Groff 11:32 the whole professionalism equals well groomed, fashionable, and it's just overrated. Kurt Nelson 11:39 So first impressions, and like you, you know, you look at somebody and go, "Oh, that doesn't really matter. When you really think about like what is the end result, is that is that kind of where you're going with that? Bree Groff 11:51 Yeah, I mean, I'm not showing up to anybody's wedding in a tracksuit. You know, you sort of like read the room of what's appropriate. But yeah, I don't think you know if I'm meeting with a financial planner. It's not like oh, you're going to be better with my money because you've got that kick-ass seat in your slacks. You know, it's just it it feels performative. It's very not inclusive in many ways, and I wish we could expand our definition of what professionalism looks like, so also so that I can be comfortable. Being comfortable is good. Okay, Tim Houlihan 12:30 so we're talking with Bree about her new book. Today was fun, and as I as we were talking before, the journey starts with the cover with that big ass smiley face on it, but you just kind of teed up this idea that there are the chapter titles are non traditional. I'm just going to read a couple just to to tee this up. Keep it cool. We're all in it together. I love that. Of course, your your stretchy pants ones. One of my favorites is you are the defender of date nights crossword puzzles and your health. Absolutely love that. Okay, this is not a seven steps to success book. Why not? Why not? Why not write the in just seven steps? You can have this fantastic work life. Bree Groff 13:18 Well, there's already a lot of those out there, and I'm a big believer that if you're going to write a book, you have to write the book that only you can write. That I had a great speaking coach who once said to me, "the the ideas that you would or thoughts you would only whisper to a friend that's like, oh, I think this is true, but I don't want to say out loud. That's the stuff you put in your book, and so ideas like your brain works whether you're wearing a suit or stretchy pants. It's not fashionable, I guess, no pun intended to say that in business society, but I really think it, and so that was going to be the title of that chapter. I, yeah, I felt like if I was going to make a contribution, it was going to be the truest version of what I have learned when it comes to workplace cultures, employee engagement. Those are the fancy words for it, but it's essentially like the human experience at work. And so, I wanted to speak my own professional learnings and personal learnings into the book, and I just wrote them like I speak. You know, there's lots of cursing in the book. I think it's fine. Should yeah, that's me. It's not for everybody. Kurt Nelson 14:42 Well, before we get into the content of the book, just beyond just the titles, tell us about the structure of the book. Tell us, like, it's not a traditional business book. You have a crossword puzzle in there. You, you know, I mean, tell us about why you decided to do that. Bree Groff 15:00 Yeah. So here's a dirty little secret. I don't really like reading business books. I Kurt Nelson 15:09 don't know who does, but I'm sure there are people. Okay, thanks for saying that. It's Bree Groff 15:13 just you know, there's some that I read the summaries of, and I'm like, yeah, that's a good idea. You know, as they say, could have been a blog post, but sometimes you get into them, and there's like a case study, and I heard that case study before, and then it just all ends with like you surprise you should value your people, and I don't know. I I felt like there was room to do something a little bit more interesting. We spend so much of our time too on social media and email, and the way that we consume is different as well. And as much as I don't love the shortened attention spans, and you know people aren't reading books as much as they used to, I also think there's something kind of light and joyful about consuming a smaller Bite of information, wisdom, a provocation. So I wrote the book in what I think of as thought chocolates, almost like you pick a chocolate out of a box. You don't know what you're going to get. You bite it. It's delightful, and then it's over. You know, within the minute. So each chapter is broken up to into these little vignettes that, if I've done my job right, weave into a robust theory with practices and a philosophy underpinning it that you can take away. But I wanted people to, you know, on a lunch break or five minutes before the next meeting, be able to pick up the book, read a little vignette that's I don't know half a page, page and a half, and take something away from it. Tim Houlihan 16:49 Practical mindsets are a critical part of the book. You you've got the theoretical support as well, but what drew you to focusing on an extensive volume of personal anecdotes in the book that help set up these practical mindsets. Why? Why was that? Bree Groff 17:11 Yeah, you're right. It's very practical and it's very personal. It's practical because I'm a practitioner, so I am not a professor or a researcher. I am a longtime consultant, and my professional expertise comes from trying stuff with the own with my own teams that I've led, and also with clients. And so my brain always goes to, well, what can we do? And I think that's also what readers are asking themselves. I mean, there's lots of great philosophy theory books out there, but I think a lot of times people are like, "Yeah, but tomorrow when I go to work, can you just give me something to try? Because I want to live my way into this. Try on this philosophy for size. So there's a lot of practical. Here's a something that you can do within a meeting. Here's a structure for a workshop you can do. An idea that you can execute, and then it's very personal. I write a lot about losing my mom to cancer in 2022, the experience of caregiving, because to me that experience of loss, that sort of existential, frankly, probably my own midlife crisis of like, oh wait, we're not immortal. You know, you know that in theory until you care for somebody with a terminal disease, and then you really, really know it. And it affected so much how I thought about the workplace that I felt like it had to go in there because I didn't want to write a book that made the business case for employee engagement. There's tons of books like that out there, and it's an important point. It's good, but I just think it's it pales in comparison to the more important case to be made, which is the existential case that we are spending five sevenths of each week of our finite lives at work, and we deserve more than simply rushing through that time to get to the two days that we get to enjoy. Or, in other words, you know, watching, you know, being a part of somebody kind of counting down the days of their life, it just felt so understandable, but wrong that I would hear and say myself, "I can't wait till this week is over. Oh my God, when can it be Friday? You know, we are wishing away the few days that we get on this planet, and so that's what really drove me to write the book. And I felt like I couldn't write the book with also without also sharing that deeper experience of why of why culture matters of why our days at work the quality of those days are important. Kurt Nelson 19:52 Yeah, I love the way that you frame that and bringing in that personal experience because there's so. Much of work that we try to too often, I think, gets segregated. All right, here's here's work life. Here's the rest of my life, and it's not. We we we never have that nice segregation, even if as much as people try and as much as leaders want that. Sometimes that's not the way that it works. I want to go back though. You had talked about the practicality of of this. All right. So outside, let's for our listeners. Outside of wearing stretchy pants. All right. Choose your one. Yeah. Yeah. What? What are? What give give one or two of your? You know. It's like picking a favorite child. I know can't do that, but one or two of those little vignettes that somebody could take and say, "I'm going to try this in a meeting tomorrow. I'm going to do this, you know, next week when I go into work or whatever it would be. Just give a couple examples that you can share with with our listeners. Bree Groff 20:55 Sure. So my favorite, I guess I do have a favorite child. Oh, I love that. Good. I love that. And you let Kurt Nelson 21:03 them know. I mean, we always have to lie about this. Yeah, I do. But I can't tell. No, you're Bree Groff 21:08 cool too. I promise. I mean, it's a good thing that I have one daughter. You know. So. Well, both of my Kurt Nelson 21:15 kids who are listening, I love you both the same. I love you. Blah blah blah blah blah. Bree Groff 21:19 Yes. Yes. So my favorite child of you know company culture exercises is the check-in. Okay. And this is a five, maybe seven-minute exercise, a ritual, if you will, that you can do at the top of your team meetings. So if you're doing, if you do a daily standup, you can do it then. If you do a weekly meeting, start it off then. And it goes like this: I'll tell you how it works, and then I'll explain why it works. So, so often in the beginning of meetings, we're like, "Hi, how was your weekend? You're sort of chatting. Maybe two people, the chattiest ones, are chatting. Everyone else is silent. You say, "How are you? You say, "Good. How are you? And nothing much gets exchanged. Instead, the check-in asks the question: "Is a leader? You can start it. So, how is everybody really on a scale of zero to five? Let's all put it in our hands on the count of three. So you'll think about if you're a five, if you're a two, you're having a terrible day. Maybe you're a zero. So let's put on our hands. Oh, we could do all do it together. You want to do it with me? Kurt Nelson 22:28 Sure. Bree Groff 22:29 Okay. So how are you doing? Really, 321, go. All right. So now I'm seeing Kurt as a four, Tim as a four. Oh, we're all fours today. Okay, solid number. If you are a zero, totally fair game too. And then what you do is you just go around the room. If you have a small team of like 567, people, you can have each person do it in about 30 seconds. For a larger team, everybody can put it in chat if you're remote, and you just say why. So I'll say honestly, I am for today. It's so I've been looking forward to this conversation, so that makes it kind of a five, but also minus one. It's we have the terrible air quality in New York today. It's it kind of gives me anxiety, to be honest. I'm back wearing a mask again, so minus one. Kurt, how are you? In 30 seconds. Kurt Nelson 23:18 So it's it's amazing because we both had four and almost exactly same. So I'm in Minneapolis. In Minneapolis, we have fires up in northern Minnesota and in Canada, and it has been the worst two days of air quality that I've ever. I mean, I tasted the smoke as I walk outside. Actually, we had a window open that I closed the the other day, and it's been super hot, and it's been super hot for a long time. And Tim and I were talking about this earlier. Doesn't get cool at night, and so actually, I should maybe go to a three because my sleep quality has been going my sleep quality has been going bad because got the air conditioner cranked, and I don't like sleeping with the air conditioner on. And so anyway, that that's so that's where I'm very much, but we've had this conversation that we've been looking for. We had another one earlier today. It's been fantastic, and I get to travel. I get. I'm leaving right after this and heading my family reunion, so that'll be that'll be fun. So I get to see my brothers and sisters. So hey, thanks. Tim Houlihan 24:17 That's a and over Bree Groff 24:18 to you, Tim. Tim Houlihan 24:20 Oh God, I hate being called on in class. Okay, so so great the great part of today is that I've gotten off to a good start and have gotten a bunch accomplished, and I'm looking forward to Katie and I are going to the mountains this weekend. So that's kind of cool. That so that's all good. And Katie's Bree Groff 24:43 your wife. Tim Houlihan 24:44 Katie's my wife. Yes, Kurt Nelson 24:46 we don't talk about that. Not on the Tim Houlihan 24:50 podcast. Eddie's not his Kurt Nelson 24:53 wife, but that's yeah. Okay, right. Tim Houlihan 24:55 And the minus one is that we had some technical difficulties in our last. Recording this morning, and and yeah, that was like really. Can I? I just want to say it was fucking irritating that yeah, like really tapped into this, and it just really boiled my bones to to have that. So yeah, okay, Bree Groff 25:16 I get it. I've been there. Thank you both for doing that, so that's if we sort of like come out like so that's how you do it. And now, I know things like I know Kurt has brothers and sisters. I didn't know that before. I know Tim has a wife or a friend named Katie that I didn't know that that Kurt Nelson 25:35 they're going to the mountains. Yeah, Bree Groff 25:37 yeah. So it has so you do that right. It takes up maybe five minutes at the start of a meeting. It takes up the time that normally you're like, let's wait, give a few minutes for people to join. You know, whatever you do. And if you do it regularly, it has so many benefits. Benefits of psychological safety. If you feel, if you share something, especially something that's maybe not quite right, or just feels like a little vulnerable, and you're affirmed by like, oh yeah, that's terrible. Well, now maybe you're more likely to to share your ideas or thoughts when it comes to the work. It's great for cognitive offloading or the notion that writing or speaking, what's running through your brain can improve your improve your performance on the next task. It's great for anticipating misunderstandings. If someone says, you know, if they're off camera and you're inclined to be like, oh, that slacker is not on camera, and they're like, oh, hey, everybody, I'm a two. I threw my back out, so I'm on the couch. Now you're like, oh, instead of rolling your eyes, and it's sometimes, especially in meetings where there's a real discrepancy in air time, if everybody can speak equally at first, now no one's in the position of like, oh my god, I haven't spoken all meeting now. I the one thing I'm going to say has to be really good. So it's the Simplest practice that you can insert into your meetings that has such benefits. In addition to it's simply just being nice to be acknowledged as a human before you dive into did you send me this thing? Did you get that thing done? It's just a small human moment. So the check-in is an exercise in the book, And one, if you know the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding, where the father-in-law he sprays Windex on everything, like, oh, did you get a paper cut? Let me spray some Windex on it. That's what I think of the check-in leg. It's base. It's just good for everything. Tim Houlihan 27:39 Cognitive hygiene, huh? Bree Groff 27:41 It is. It totally is. So there you go. Hey, this is Kurt Nelson 27:46 Kurt, and we want to say thanks for listening to Behavioral Grooves, and we hope that you're enjoying this episode. But it feels a little bit one-sided. You're hearing from us, but we're not hearing from you. Tim Houlihan 27:59 This is Tim, and we have two suggestions to remedy that. The first is join our Facebook page and engage with us. Kurt Nelson 28:06 We want to talk with you. We want to hear your perspectives, and hopefully, our Facebook page might be the place to have some of that interaction. So please, please come and join us. The Tim Houlihan 28:17 other recommendation we have for you is to leave us a quick rating. You know the little five-star thing at the bottom of your app, or a short review. Just leave us a few words about what you like about Behavioral Grooves. We'd very much appreciate it. Thanks, and we now return you to our regularly scheduled programming. Kurt Nelson 28:36 Yeah, well, Bree, it's interesting. I one of my favorite clients I ever worked with was a biotech company, and the leader in there was she was fantastic. She was amazing. She didn't do exactly that, but she did a one word check in. She said, "You know, whatever. And so people would come up, and they would they would do. I'm feeling you know energized today. And the thing is, it was never. It's kind of like our speed round. It's never a one word check in. It was always oh well why are you feeling energized and then they get into that little bit and then the other person is like oh yeah I'm feeling a little bit whatever and so they would use different words it would but it gets to that same and I never really thought about it in in the way that you just described like how why that was working I just knew that it was a really positive thing and it was working, and that people like were excited going to a meeting for just that part of it. So thank you. Yeah, yeah, Bree Groff 29:30 I love that. So where does work life balance Tim Houlihan 29:34 fit on your lexicon of of phrases that you love To use, you Bree Groff 29:43 know, honestly, like I don't mind it. I know some people are like work-life balance. No, it's work-life integration, or it's like neither. I don't know. I don't care about. Yeah, I Tim Houlihan 29:52 heard a guy say, "If you have a problem with work-life balance, balance, you're not working hard enough. Like, ouch. It's a little debilitating, but Bree Groff 30:03 yeah. Tim Houlihan 30:04 But but where is that? Where is that divide then between professionalism and sort of home and work, basically? Bree Groff 30:13 Yeah. So there's a great quote from Reddit, where all the great quotes come from all the great philosophers of our time, and it said, "In 20 years from now, no one is going to remember that you work late except your kids, and that really just cut to the bone. I thought because that's true. I think of overworking in the same way, I think of inflammation in the body. If you get a, Kurt's laughing at my nerdy medical record. I'm not a doctor. I'm just thinking about that, and I'm going. Kurt Nelson 30:51 Okay, where are you going with us? Keep going, keep going. Thanks. Come on the ride Bree Groff 30:55 with me. Right. So if you get a cut, there's some inflammation, right? Like your body is surging, is was is flowing blood to the side of the scene. It inflames a little bit, but that's a good thing, right? Like you want you want your body to heal, so that's an acute response. Great. What's whether Tim Houlihan 31:16 whether or not you're using Windex to cure it? Bree Groff 31:22 That's right. What you don't want in your, and again, I'm no medical professional. What I read, right, is that you. What you don't want is chronic inflammation across your body. So that means something systemic is happening, chronic stress, being in that like hyper vigilant state of constant anxiety, where according to Microsoft's report, and people are interrupted by a message meeting or a notification every two minutes during the workday, so like that sort of chronically threat detecting state-that's where the trouble is for both our bodies of chronic inflammation and then also our lives of this sort of chronic overworking. So I've had teams lots of times work late, work long hours, but the trick was that that wasn't the expectation. It wasn't how we planned our projects or our way of doing business. Or in other words, I say if your business runs on over-extracting from your people, taking more than you agreed to in your employment contracts, that's not a healthy business. You are not running it well in that case, and so you know sometimes overworking is fun. You know, like there have been late nights where I've had consulting. We ordered food and we were going like into the wee hours before a client thing. It was actually kind of awesome. I loved it, but would I want to do that every night? No, absolutely not. Like to me, that's no way to live. And for some people, you know, everybody choose your own adventure. If there's some people out there who work all the time and love it, then far be it for me to say otherwise. My point is only that, or my caution is only that there is always an opportunity cost, and so the question for individuals and for leaders is: if someone is overworking, where is that time coming from? And that's what leaders don't like to acknowledge, because probably where that time is coming from is that person's ability to exercise. So, what are you? What are you inadvertently doing to their, you know, you know, cardiovascular fitness? Or it's coming from their ability to read a bedtime story to their kids, or coming from their ability to look over at their spouse when they ask a question instead of that spouse feeling ignored. And we are taught to never bring those costs into the workplace as the ultimate form of not safe for work content. You can't say like, "Oh, my cholesterol was really bad and I've got problems. You can't say that, right? And but we have to think about it's not free. Overworking is not free, and so what are the prices that we're paying, and if an employer is not willing to to sort of stop the floodgates as individuals, if we work within a company, that's why I wrote the chapter on it's our job to defend date nights, crossword puzzles, and our health. No boss is going to say like, "Oh, did you do your crossword puzzle today? Because it's good for your mental health, and like nobody's going to say that. That's us. We have to stop those things, and it's important too because otherwise, those moments, you know, the spouse looks away and then goes on feeling unseen, and those. Moments just pass us by, not to be a downer about it. No, but it's so Tim Houlihan 35:04 ironic, though, that and the way that you pose it is is really articulate. This you can't. It's not okay to bring your personal life into work in that in that regard, and yet it's totally okay if your work life spills into your personal life, Bree Groff 35:20 right? Tim Houlihan 35:22 Like yeah. in fact, if it's not the norm, it should be. Like, what's wrong with you? Why aren't you answering emails at 8o'clock at night? Yeah, Kurt Nelson 35:29 on vacation. Why don't you take your computer on vacation? We've talked about that a couple, you know, and like all those kind of things. We won't go. Tim's laughing. Bree, first off, thank you. That was a fantastic analogy. I love the acute versus the work, and so inflammation, fantastic. And I was going, yes, it landed really well, so that was great. I'm going to go. You know, Tim asked like that common statement of work-life balance. I'm going to ask you another one to get your response to that. So, what do you feel about love what you do, and you'll never work a day in your life. That kind of those people that talk about that-is that a true? Is it semi-true? Where do you fall on the scale of love? What you do, and you're never going to work a day in your life? Bree Groff 36:16 I think it's kind of an exhausting goal. Tim Houlihan 36:20 I would. I I hope everybody's watching this on YouTube because your facial expressions were just fantastic. Bree Groff 36:30 In my utter despair and despondency, yeah, it's like so high a bar, and I know I know there are people out there who feel this way, yeah, and I say, great, that's amazing, and it's just not for everybody, and it's not necessary to enjoy our working days. So, what I hope for in this, the premise I'm putting forth in the book is that there's sort of two ends of a pendulum, and then there's a third way. So one end of the pendulum is just as you stated: love what you do, and you'll never work a day in your life. The other end of the the pendulum is well, work is called work for a reason. So like it sucks. It's a four letter word, right? And I would say, well, that's not helpful either because there's nothing intrinsically horrible about work. Work is just creating value that others want to exchange their value money for, and so maybe there's a third way where we settle the pendulum in the middle, which is just like you know, work's kind of a nice way to spend our time on the planet. It's actually a pretty cool excuse to spend time with other humans building things. You know, like a lot of times, I think maybe the best form of work is if you can hang out with people all day who you kind of like, and in the process make value for others and money for yourself. Well, then you kind of win. I think you're winning the game, and so I, I think it's just sort of a simpler way. Maybe work can just be fun, like that's it, no more and no less. Tim Houlihan 38:08 That's so beautifully said. That leads me to Milton Glaser, which you just refer to so affectionately in in the book. Tell our listeners a little bit about Milton Glaser because he's not just an average Joe, and and and some of the wisdom that you took away from your relationship with him, yeah, and his and his work, you know, which is huge. Bree Groff 38:33 Yeah, for those who don't know him, Milton Glaser was a design legend. He passed away in 2020, I believe, and was maybe one of the best, if not the best designers to ever live. He had one-man shows at MoMA and the Center Pompidou. He received a Presidential Medal from President Obama. He is the originator, the creator of the iHeartNY logo, which you're probably familiar with. Kurt Nelson 39:06 Yeah, everybody copies now, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Badly, exactly. Bree Groff 39:11 He was prolific, and even more so, I think a human that just really believed that there were fewer boundaries than we think when it comes to creating work and doing work and putting things in the world. So yes, in the book I profile. So sadly, actually, I don't have a relationship with him. My good friend and frequent collaborator Sue was his art director for a decade, and so through Sue, I heard stories about Milton from the 10 years she spent with him, and just sort of fell in love. Like was just totally enamored. A few stories I I tell in the book. There's one about a. He was asked to do this architectural. I'm sorry, it was a wayfinding project at a pharmaceutical company, and you know they're saying, you know, can you just make the signs that tell the busses where to go? And this was the design project, and you know, so they're meeting with a wayfinding agency and learning all the very serious things and the theory behind all of that, and he went home that night, came back the next morning, and said to Sue, "He said we're doing the wrong project for them. These people don't need a wayfinding system. So Sue's like, "Okay, what do they need? Because she's sort of used to managing all of the crazy ideas. Like, what am I going to tell the client, "It's like these people need a bakery. What they need is the most delicious, freshly baked bread that's ever existed. That's what these scientists need at this pharmaceutical company. And we're gonna make, we're gonna design the bakery. It's gonna be in the shape of a cake. Like the building is gonna be in the shape of a cake, and you know, ultimately they did not end up building this. But that's not the point of the story. The point of the story was that one, his imagination had no bounds. You know, he wasn't thinking of like, well, should the sign be this big or that big, which is how we're normally thinking about our work projects, like incremental improvements or even innovation. It's like, well, we're going to have a flashing light for us, you know. But he was like, you know what? Maybe there's a more fundamental human need at play here. People need to know where to go on the campus, sure, but also maybe these people just need fresh bread. And you know, honestly, when she told me that story. I was like, "They do need fresh. Like, I don't know. If you worked on this campus, would you rather have a kick-ass baguette or like a really nice sign? You know, like so. What I loved about him was he was always interested in he, or rather, he was never interested in what was realistic, he always figured out if it's important, won't find a way. And mostly, he was interested in what gives people pleasure and lights them up, and what are the human needs under the very, you know, mechanical things that we're usually building for in the working world, so many more stories about Milton in the book. Tim Houlihan 42:28 I'm just I'm a fan of all of those stories in part because amazing people, people that have that sort of next level creativity, often have so much more to bring to the world just in the way that they talk. Nevertheless, you know, there's these really wonderful comments, you know, that that he made. Today was fun. Why not have a good day? Or what what is it that you want readers to take away from today was fun? Not today. Was a pretty good day. Today was okay. Today was today could have been better. Today was a four. Bree Groff 43:09 Well, first of all, chapter one is called "Most Work, Most Days Should Be Fun. So I'm of no belief that every day is perfect. You know, if you're averaging like most days, most of my work is fun. It's great, right? Like take the pressure off. So maybe it's a slight misnomer. It's not a book about fun at work per se. I think sometimes people read the title and they're like, "Okay, where's the happy hours? Kurt Nelson 43:38 Foosball tables and football. Yeah, yeah, we're the games. We're yeah Bree Groff 43:42 exactly, and it's like I love foosball too, but it's still not the point of the book. It was actually my editor that suggested the title because I was really struggling with how to encapsulate what I set out to do was write a book about the most human, joyful, life giving, and creative and Productive teams, work settings that I could imagine. Everything that I have learned about creating those kinds of joyful, high-performing teams, and what it feels like to go to work and come home from one of them. In addition to two chapters about not working, like how do we think about the rest of our lives? And she was the one who suggested today was fun as simply the thing, the ultimate metric. I love it because it's the thing that you say when you've had a good day. You come, you know, and more often maybe we say if you go to the amusement park with your family, you come home and you say, "Ah, today was fun. But my goal is that that's not quarantined to the leisure day of days of our lives. That that's an accessible phrase, Monday through Friday, and I think it's simple. I think it's joyful. It's honestly what I hope for my daughter as I see her grow up. I hope she's wildly successful in all the classical ways. Sure, why not? But mostly, what I hope for her is that she has a lifetime of curling up in bed at night and thinking to herself, "Today was fun. You know, I just think like you could win, you win life if you've got that most days. Tim Houlihan 45:24 So who's the best? Who's the ideal reader? Like when you when you write this, when you wrote all this down, did you have someone in mind? Bree Groff 45:32 Yes, for sure. So it could be broad, more broadly applicable to work at large, but it's really for knowledge workers, and especially useful if you have some sort of manager team leadership. If you have at least one direct report, only because so many of the exercises and are built around teams and managing and leadership in that way. And then knowledge, you know, a lot of my examples come from my own experience in consulting, and then working with corporate teams. So, in nonprofits, I've actually gotten a lot of love from the nonprofit space. So not just the corporate world, but yeah, it's the person who's thinking, well, I kind of like my job. It's a good job. Am I having fun? That's a stretch. I've got a tim I want them to have good days, but I don't know. What do you want me to do? Like throw a party? It's for that person who just wants a little bit more joy out of the Monday to Friday. Kurt Nelson 46:40 At one point in the book, you make note that leadership is not about being a cheerleader, but it's more about being a narrator. Tell us, what do you mean by that? Bree Groff 46:53 Yeah, you know, I think there's a mistaken notion that if you want your teens to be happy and positive, that you need to tell them everything's great and pump them up and pretend like everything's great yourself. This is not what people need, right? And so there's nothing about this book that is, I think, toxic positivity. It's not try to be happy. In fact, really, what people want is just to be seen, so that's why I advocate for being the narrator over being the cheerleader. If your team or company, or even just your colleague next to you, they're having a hard time, you don't need to say, "Oh, it's going to get better, because they're going to be like, "Well, what if it doesn't? And maybe they're right, right? Like it's mostly what people want is a leader who can narrate the situation. Look, team, this is way harder of a period than I thought it was going to be. We did not expect for this to happen and this to get delayed. I know personally, like I'm having a bit of a hard time balancing it all. It doesn't have to be all downers. Like as a leader, by definition, I think I hope you should have hope that things could get better and some ideas about how to make things better. So the art is in saying this sucks. Like I'm not having fun. We're not having fun, are we? And then at least the tim drop their shoulders and say, Oh my God, thank you for recognizing that this is not great. Kurt Nelson 48:24 It's holding up that zero in that meeting, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's or one, right? I don't have to lie and say it's a four or five every time. No, Bree Groff 48:31 and then from there, it's an inclusive place to start talking about. All right, what should we do about this? All right, let's reconfigure the project plan. Let's have this conversation because that's an honest conversation, and that feels better to people. You know, you don't want to look at a leader who's like, "Oh, everything's great, when you know it's not. And then you're like, "What is this leader? Just like, do they not get it? Are they lying? And it's just like all things in life, it's just a good philosophy. Is tell the truth when in doubt, just tell the truth. Tim Houlihan 49:07 Yeah. Okay. So tell us the truth about AI in the workplace these days, as it's absolutely exploding. Bree Groff 49:16 Yeah. Here's the truth as I see it, anyway, it's a weird product. Most products are marketed as like here's the features, and don't you want it? And AI is marketed as like fear mongering, as far as like like people are like, oh my god, do I have to train this thing to take over my job if everyone's like if you don't learn AI someone you know AI is going to take your job or someone who knows AI will and then you're like but it's not actually that helpful right now and so I'm kind of wasting it's like I don't know it's really fraught my point of view is always the goal is not. Efficiency, and so right now, when we're thinking of AI as an efficiency-producing technology, we just have to remember the goal is value. The goal is impact, right? Like the goal is creativity in making the world a place that we want to live in, and so I don't want all of the efficiency talk to get ahead of what truly matters. I do worry about AI taking jobs. I think it's still really bad at a bunch of stuff, and we can just wait for it to get better instead of trying to parade around the fact that we're using it all the time. But like you know, in places like software development, it is doing a lot of the work. If I were to promote my friend's my friend Joe's book, "Do More in Four" about the four-day work week, published in January, that's one solution, right? Like if you are gaining efficiencies instead of laying people off, can we incentivize companies at an organization at like a government level to reduce working hours? I don't know. There's so many directions to go on this. What I hope is that we just don't lose sight of we the humans still get to decide the world we want to live in, and I think living in a world of AI, it feels like you know, it sort of feels like you're on that mechanical bull at the Tex Mex place, you know, just like holding on for dear life. And what I hope for my clients and for all leaders and organizations is that we still feel a sense of human agency that this is a tool that we can use if we want to, and we don't have to use it all the time and in all places. It's a toaster. It's a product. It's a thing that helps us do certain things. And so, can we keep it in its box as best we can. Kurt Nelson 52:01 Yeah, Bree. I think it's really interesting. I I love the point that human. You know, it's a we have to remember that we're human, and human that the human part of this, and a lot of the work I've been doing with my clients, and some of the research I've been looking into the lit reviews and various different pieces that are coming out is is there's a lot of unintended human costs with AI that aren't necessarily costs that happen immediately. They're the I can use AI now to you know find out a question that I would have formally gone and asked my teammates and my my or my boss or a mentor about. So we're losing those connections. We're losing those little opportunities to to bond and to be human with each other, you know, and to find out the the questions that you asked earlier. Oh, hey, that yeah, you know, we're losing some of our critical thinking skills if we offload too much of it. And again, it doesn't mean that tomorrow I'm going to be dumber, but it means that over time, if we don't use that skill and that that brain power, you know, we're not as good at it. So we're not going to be able to do that. And it can help in creativity on an individual level, but it doesn't necessarily help the organization's creativity because actually it kind of takes what was you know 100 people all with their you know all over the place, and in an organization that's great, you know, and it might have each individual goes up that, but now every individual goes up, but they're all pointed in the same direction. So as an organization, we're even losing some of that. So I think it's really interesting in that leaders don't fully take that into consider. They don't consider that a cost because it's not on the it's not on the spreadsheet today, and that that I think is a miss, and so I love the human side that you're talking to. So, Bree Groff 53:45 yeah, I mean, part of the thesis of the book is that working actually is fun, thinking is fun, creativity is fun, and so when we think of thinking and working as something bad, something to outsource and minimize, we sort of lose the plot of, oh, we actually kind of liked coming up with that idea. We liked struggling through and having a discussion, and so I'd hate to to lose all of that. What are we going to do? End up in those wally chairs, you know? Where Kurt Nelson 54:18 is Bree Groff 54:20 that one? Is that Kurt Nelson 54:21 the one. Oh my gosh, it's a great it's a great image, and not a well not a great image. It's a sad image, but it's this image image that is is is true out there. I know Tim is is hankering here to talk some music. I can tell. Tim Houlihan 54:37 So, were you listening to any particular music when you wrote the book? Do you listen to music when you write? Let me ask you that. Bree Groff 54:45 Oh, yeah, I listen to like a lo-fi background. Tim Houlihan 54:51 Ooh, okay, okay. So very, very hip, Bree Groff 54:54 ambient kind of thing. So hip, yeah. Tim Houlihan 54:56 Okay, so and. Did did you did you have some lofi tracks going, some very ambient things going while you were writing the book? Bree Groff 55:07 I did. I'm not cool enough to know what they are. I just go on Spotify and then I type in lofi, and then this little like image of a woman with a cat in the rainy window comes up, and I say that one. That's that's what I Tim Houlihan 55:23 do. Okay, that that works. Well, let's let's take it a step further. If you were to find yourself on a desert island for an extended period of time with a listening device that only had two musical artists on it, which two would you choose? Bree Groff 55:39 Okay, I confess, I'm cheating right now. I'm real dorky about music. I don't know any. I'm looking. Why can Tim Houlihan 55:43 you cheat? It's your answer. You know what? Bree Groff 55:45 I'm looking at my Spotify to figure Kurt Nelson 55:48 out. Okay. Bree Groff 55:50 Um. Yeah, probably Wolfpeck. You know them. They maybe you even say it Wolfpeck, and I'm that bad at it. They have the song Back Pocket. I don't know. They're really good at talking to them a lot. All right, V U L F P E C K. It is. It is Tim Houlihan 56:09 literally. It's it's spelled phonetically like the German pronunciation. Wolfpeck. Bree Groff 56:15 Yeah. Tim Houlihan 56:16 Okay. All right. I'm not familiar with them, so that that's cool. Very good hearing about Tim loves that new Kurt Nelson 56:23 new artist for him. Tim Houlihan 56:26 Yeah, okay. And who else? Bree Groff 56:28 I don't know. Is Brie going to Tim Houlihan 56:31 be variety seeking or consistency? Comfort Kurt Nelson 56:35 from like when you were a teenager. Bree Groff 56:37 Yeah, maybe it could be that. Here's the other weird thing about me, I can listen to one song on repeat for hours. My husband not into this, not into it. I can see that. I can see. Oh yeah, oh yeah, on repeat. And so, if I'm telling all my secrets now, I was listening to the Armani White Billie Eilish song on repeat for hours. That Tim Houlihan 57:02 one. Wow. Bree Groff 57:02 Yeah. Oh, yeah. The Fool by Queen or Q V E E N Herbie. I really, you know, that was fun. There's an old song, "Old Potatoes" by Sarah Beth, which is about vodka. Get it? Old Potatoes. Tim Houlihan 57:19 Oh, that I've listened Bree Groff 57:22 to for hours. I don't know. My brain likes it. It just likes it. Tim Houlihan 57:27 I think that's amazing. You're the first person I've talked to who has ever said they like listening to one song on repeat for more than just one or two times. Bree Groff 57:36 Oh yeah. I don't know. The brain wants what it wants. You just have to. Tim Houlihan 57:41 Well, I get it as like as a musician. Sometimes I'm interested in learning a song, and I want to just study it. And I want, and and before I get into sort of the fussy part of studying it, I just want to absorb it. I just want to have that absorption experience. And so, listening for you know 10 or 12 times can just help with the absorption, to where I kind of get bored with it, and then you go, "Oh, that's when you start to notice. I think there's, Kurt Nelson 58:09 I think there's certain songs though too that I could listen to more often over and over, where where you find something new in them. There's some though that you get excited about right away, and then it's like by the third or fourth time you're kind of going, all right, I'm done. There's nothing new. There's nothing. It's like that was really exciting. And then it's just like oh, but others where it's more of that build where you find oh, I didn't see how they use that twist of of a phrase or like how something's you know snuck in from a musical perspective, Tim. You can probably talk to that more than I can, but I do listen to things over and over. I have a playlist that I make for my evening. Tim knows about my sleep issues, and so I have playlists, and I listen to those playlists for six to months to a year, and then I and then finally, I need to change, and I get a new new playlist that I create. But it's the same songs over and over every night. Yeah, I Bree Groff 59:06 think you should put those in the show notes. There's hundreds and Kurt Nelson 59:11 hundreds of them if I go back over the years. Yeah. So yeah. Thank you, Tim Houlihan 59:15 thank you for saying that, Bree, because I think that's a great idea, Kurt. You should definitely put those in the show notes. Bree Groff, what a treat it was to talk to you today. Thank you for being a guest on Behavioral Grooves. Bree Groff 59:25 Well, thank you for having me. I had fun, so thank you. Kurt Nelson 59:29 Today was fun. Tim Houlihan 59:30 Today was fun. Here we, nice, nice, nice edge. Okay. Kurt Nelson 59:45 Welcome to our grooves session, where Tim and I share ideas on what we learned from our discussion with Bree, have a free-flowing conversation, and groove on whatever else comes into our narrator brains. Wouldn't it be great if we could adopt more? Of that, as leaders in the workforce, to be the we're the storyteller. We're the we're arcing the story with Greek. It would be great if our brains just became more of a narrator of our own lives and told us the truth about things, and not just the made up shit that we always like to believe. Right, but yes, I do think you are 100% correct, Tim. I think that as leaders in organizations, our job isn't to just be the cheerleader. Our job isn't just to like be the person who pumps everybody up or even sets the direction and just disappears. It's to be that narrator to be telling the story, the good, the bad, and the ugly, as it Tim Houlihan 1:00:45 is. Yeah, not we're not the positivity champs. It's it's just the reality ones. And I think that the way that we do that would be if we stay, if we keep our remarks to our team specific. We don't overgeneralize. We certainly don't catastrophize. Certainly avoid that. But if we use something like that zero to five scale and just do a quick check in to find out where's the nervous system of the team right now, yeah. Kurt Nelson 1:01:13 Go ahead. I was going to say, Tim Houlihan 1:01:18 I think that's the first time in 550 episodes we've looked at each other and not not known what's going to happen next. Well, Kurt Nelson 1:01:27 I never know what's going to happen next, but it's the first time that we both kind of looked at it, going, "You speak, me speak. Who do you want to say something? All right. So here's where I was going with this: is it reminded me when she was talking about it, and even more upon reflection of Nick Epley, and how Nick Epley is talking about people don't want to have small talk conversations, right? He said, "I mean, we even talking with strangers, you you want to have meaningful conversations, and so it's like ask questions that get people to really open up about who they are and how they're feeling in different pieces, and this zero to five question is fantastic for that because it gets to the heart, and particularly if people feel like they can say a two or they can say a five, right? It's not everybody's not going to always be. I'm four. I'm always four, you know. So Tim Houlihan 1:02:29 that's okay too. What whatever that is, it's so it it also builds relationships, right? On the team, it actually increases trust among the members of the team because we get to find out who people really are, I think this might be a bit of a stretch, but it might actually support Kimberlé Crenshaw's idea of intersectionality of showing up with who you are to the team, not some kind of made-up plastic face around it. And and I think that there's also a benefit in just allowing somebody at the beginning of the meeting to say, you know what, I'm a two because I I haven't had much sleep last night. I've had there's been some challenging things with health health issues in my family, not really going great. That is a cognitive offloading that could allow you to reduce your cognitive load for as you go through the day, just by saying just by knowing that you actually got to offload that at the beginning, like that's off my that's off my chest right now. I don't have to worry about it. Kurt Nelson 1:03:27 Well, and I think it helps the team understand that okay, Kurt isn't showing up like he normally shows up today. Is he pissed off? Is he you know something you know bad happening? And if particularly if he's the boss, and you know, oh, is something wrong? And I start to go, oh, I need, do I need to worry something? So it takes that worry off too, because then you go, oh, here's the reason behind that, and so you better understand. And to your point earlier, it allows some of those conversations that might happen, maybe not in that meeting per se, but afterwards you can go, "Hey, what you know? What's going on? Is there anything I can do to help? And you can have those heartfelt conversations, which is really one of the things. It's not about positivity. I mean, a good day at work isn't about it just being positive and wonderful. I mean, that's great when it happens, but it's about being real and true. Tim Houlihan 1:04:26 Katie and I end our days with a quick conversation of two two good things, two bad things. So we get both on the table, and it's dealer's choice as to what the what we're going to share. But at least it says, "Okay, today wasn't perfect because we're not expecting perfect. But if we don't have any bad things to say, it's okay to say, "I don't have any bad things that happen today. But if there's no good things, I'm like, "Well, we got to kind of reach. Let's let's dig a little bit. What what there must have been something that went well, and so we do push each other on that. Kurt Nelson 1:04:58 I did like. Bree's whole thing about narrator, not cheerleader, as the leadership mindset that you need to take in when you're a leader, and this idea that don't just have positivity for positivity's sake. That Tim Houlihan 1:05:14 yeah, that's toxic Kurt Nelson 1:05:15 positivity really can erode trust. You know, the idea that oh, everything's great when people on your team know they know it's not. I mean, we are really good at our BS detectors, and we can we can tell. And so, just be honest, right? Tim Houlihan 1:05:34 Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I also just wanted to make a note about her take on AI, and when it comes to you know leaders being accountable, and how she she was pushing leaders to name sort of the real costs of efficiency out out loud, like what what are we gonna what are we gonna get out of this? How how are we going to make AI actually work for us? And with all the work that you've been doing on on AI, Kurt, and the just the grooves examples of work slop and and rework and all those kinds of things. Like let's let's just talk about them. Let's actually have an open and honest conversation about the impact of bringing AI into our team as we go through it, as we learn more, as we figure it out. Kurt Nelson 1:06:19 You would think with all of the work that I've been doing and the the papers that I've written on this and various different pieces around this that I would have this conversation with my team. But one of the reasons I'm a two today is because I got some stuff this morning that I'm like on this is AI, this is AI, and it's not right. And it's it's it's like I'm like going, you know, and I need to address that, and I haven't, and so yeah, it's it's some of that part in there where I'm just like going. I mean, it sounds great, but then I'm looking at it and I'm going, is this great? Is this really what we want to do? No, this isn't this isn't how this should work. I don't think this is again. Those nuances are really important, but I haven't necessarily had that explicit talk with my. I've talked with my team about what we've written and and the research and different things, but I haven't said how do we use AI in ours and what are some of the expectations that we have. So yeah, okay, Grooves, Tim Houlihan 1:07:19 we want to ask you that if you've made it this far, we encourage you to subscribe to our Substack to join in the community there. Always great things to hear. There's always new articles and that are different from just the episode. So there's additional content for you that is relevant and hopefully meaningful to you. We also would love it if you would just join our Facebook community page. The Behavioral Grooves community is a fun and interactive community with lots of interactive stuff going on. So please, please jump out and check us out. And lastly, I just want to say, leave us a review. It makes a difference. Please, it makes a real meaningful difference to us if you leave us a review or just a star rating. Would be helpful too. Kurt Nelson 1:08:06 Yeah, and use your narrator brain this week to go out and find your groove. Transcribed by https://otter.ai