Kurt Nelson 0:08 Tim, what would you say if I told you that you could feel more love just by changing how you think? Tim Houlihan 0:15 Bang, Sign me up. That would be great. But I am a little skeptical. I mean, you're, you're talking about love, Kurt Nelson 0:25 yeah, yeah. I mean love, right? So I agree, I agree. I was a little skeptical as well. But our guests today, along with her co author, have been researching this question for decades, and they have identified five mindsets that can help, that can help, it can help you feel more loved, too. Tim Houlihan 0:44 Okay, that sounds interesting. Actually, I'm looking forward to hearing from her. Kurt Nelson 0:49 Welcome to behavioral grooves, the podcast that seeks to understand and explain our human behavior. I'm Kurt Tim Houlihan 0:55 Nelson and I'm Tim Houlihan. We talk with researchers and other interesting people, asking them questions to better understand why we think and behave the way that we do, to help you unlock your greatest potential and lead a more fulfilling life, like Kurt Nelson 1:10 how to feel more loved, right? Tim Houlihan 1:13 Exactly like how we can shift our mindset in order to feel more loved every day. Kurt Nelson 1:19 Okay, all right. Tim, tell me more. Tell me more. Tim Houlihan 1:23 Our guest today is Sonia libramerski, renowned happiness researcher and distinguished professor at the University of California Riverside. Sonia has been operating her happiness lab for over three decades, and is the best selling author of books like The How of Happiness and the myth of happiness. Now this conversation that we have with her focused on the findings from her new book how to feel loved that she co authored with renowned relationship researcher Harry Reese. Kurt Nelson 1:52 We've been wanting to talk to Sonia for years now, right? I mean, yes, so for us this, this was super exciting, and the topic is one that we felt strongly about, and we've had a few recent episodes that have focused in on love. Episode 522, with Paul Eastwick, and another unreleased episode, at least at the time of this recording, with Marcus Buckingham. And we often think of love as an elusive feeling that we only get to experience in limited births. But as Sonia points out, that doesn't have to be the case. A line from their book, I think, summarizes this really, really well, feeling loved is not out of your control. Tim Houlihan 2:38 You're right. Sonia and Harry identify five key mindsets in the book that help us feel loved, and these, these are the five mindsets surrounding her model. The first is sharing, listening to learn, having radical curiosity, living with an open heart and multiplicity. And all of this is about understanding that we're all complex and multifaceted. Kurt Nelson 3:04 And while we didn't explore all of those mindsets in the episode, we did take a deep dive into a few, but you're gonna have to listen to the show in order to know which ones. There you go. Tim Houlihan 3:14 Yeah, yeah. Hey, Kurt, I think that this episode is going to give our listeners some really tangible ways that they can implement right away in their lives to help them feel more loved. Kurt Nelson 3:26 I 100% agree. I mean, this, this episode, is really powerful, and I think it's going to be really important for people if they want to feel more loved, then this is the episode that's going to help them get there, and I know I'm already using some of those insights in my own life, and that they're having some really positive results, and I think our listeners will be very happy that they took the time to listen. Tim Houlihan 3:53 Yeah. Speaking of listening, I've been listening to some really cool podcasts. I'm just gonna Kurt Nelson 3:59 that was a nice segue there. Tim, was that good? Tim Houlihan 4:02 Yeah, but I've been listening to a few other podcasts recently that I think the grooves might actually find intrigue. Kurt Nelson 4:09 Wait, you're promoting our competition. Tim Houlihan 4:13 Is that what? It's not competition. They're fellow explorers. Okay, think of them as you know, podcasts who are out there trying to understand our human behavior just like we are. And maybe we could just, you know, share a couple of them that we love. Kurt Nelson 4:29 Oh, share, share the love. So to say, All right, so, so they're part of our Explorers Club, and they're exploring different things that we love is that, is that what? Tim Houlihan 4:43 Yeah, okay, yeah, it's a little. It's getting it's getting thick, but yes, Kurt Nelson 4:47 this conversation lovely, how we're doing this. Okay, Tim, all right. All right. Who have you been Tim Houlihan 4:54 listening all right? Recently, I checked out Maya shankars. Podcast. I've been listening to Maya. We've been listening to my Maya for some, some time, years. Double thumbs up there. Yeah. So her podcast is called a slight change of plans. And I just want to point out, you know, we you and I have this method. If we give somebody a book, we don't say here, you got to read this whole book. It's like, Jesus. You know, Maya's got hundreds of episodes. Don't try to listen to all of them. Just go to one episode. So if we, if you and I, we give somebody a book, we'll put a we'll put a little post it note on the chapter, and say, Here, read chapter four. It's a really good chat. And if you like that, then read the rest. So this is, I'm telling you. I'm sticking the post it note in the chapter. Start with, in a slight change of plans. Start with her episode from February 2026, on. Brene Brown, it's a fantastic conversation now. Kurt Nelson 5:50 All right, so, all right, I had my own then if we're sharing our Explorers Tim Houlihan 5:54 Club, it'll probably be better than mine. So go ahead. Kurt Nelson 5:57 Well, yeah, cuz, because it's our friend and fellow explorer Christian hunt. Oh, right, snap on the show a couple times, and he has a great podcast, and it's called human risk. And if you I mean, he takes this kind of compliance perspective, but it's really about human behavior. It's really about understanding why we take risks and or why we don't and what stops anyway. It's a great episode, but again, to point to a specific episode, he did, a recent episode with Jeffrey Ludlow, I hope I pronounced his name right. And it's about, you know what? What a sign is. A sign like, really, like traffic signs and different things and other signs, but not like it goes no, but it goes so much deeper, because it is there is, like, other parts of this that they get into. And so, you know, it's just not the signs on the roadway, but they talk about how signs are everywhere, Kurt Nelson 7:09 that flashing sign up above my head right now. Well, we do only we had a big budget that we could have, like, you know, a big sign, yeah, big sign come up and some AI, or some, you know, graphics that would be this is your sign to listen to behavioral grooves. Tim Houlihan 7:27 I wish we could have that. But in the meantime, listen to Christian fantastic human risk podcast and check out Maya shankar's a slight change of plans, especially that Brene Brown and 111, Kurt Nelson 7:43 more thing. Oh, my God, one more thing. Yeah, we would love for you grooves anybody listening to this to help out with a survey that Tim and I are doing on what it means to be in your groove at work. Now we'll put a link in the show notes, and it would be so fantastic to help us out. If you could, it's, it's 10 minutes of time, but man, it's going to be important. We're trying to gather this information for a book, but also for podcasts, etc. Tim Houlihan 8:16 So yeah, okay, thank you for putting up with our detours. Let's get back to our main conversation here about learning more about how we can feel more loved. Kurt Nelson 8:25 Sounds great. Tim Houlihan 8:27 So sit back and relax with a great big pour of feeling love and enjoy our conversation with Sonia levermirsky. Tim Houlihan 8:42 Sonia lubramski, welcome to behavioral grooves. It's a Sonja Lyubomrisky 8:45 pleasure to be here, and thank you for pronouncing my name so well. Tim Houlihan 8:48 Well, fortunately, I've got a little history on that. You know, this isn't the first time that we've met, so that that's a plus, but we're gonna get started with our special speed round. And we'd like to know first and foremost, foremost, would you prefer to learn a new instrument or a new language, a new language both. Does a language come to mind? Does any particular language Sonja Lyubomrisky 9:13 come to mind? I'll say German. Oh, yeah, fantastic. Kurt Nelson 9:19 I would love to learn German and two years Tim Houlihan 9:23 in high school, but, you know, Kurt Nelson 9:25 it doesn't stick. I am, I am the worst American education. I had a half year French. That's all I ever had in my entire schooling, even with a PhD. There you go. So Sonia, next, next speed. Round question, are you a coffee drinker or a tea drinker? Sonja Lyubomrisky 9:42 A tea drinker, and in fact, I have tea Kurt Nelson 9:44 right here. Oh, Tim will be very happy. Cheers to you. Tim Houlihan 9:49 Cheers to tea drinkers. Yes, yeah, fantastic. Kurt Nelson 9:51 We have a, we have a running, running kind of bet on that question, and I'm winning, but Tim's catching up with all the by far, Tim Houlihan 9:59 by far. Yeah, okay, okay. Third Speed Round question, true or false? Love is a skill that you can get better at. True, we are going to come back to that. We are definitely going to come back to that. Kurt Nelson 10:12 Okay, Kurt and the last of our speed round questions, can you feel love from someone, even if they don't actually say the words, I love you. Yes, all right, I think again, we will come back and discuss that in more detail as we get going. Tim Houlihan 10:32 So So Sonia, thanks for joining us today. We're we are really loving the book, How to feel loved. I mean, it's so refreshing to because Kurt and I read a lot of books every year. It's not another this is how you should love. This is how, if you just do these five things, your loving relationships would be great. I love that you approach this from the perspective of how to feel love. It's not just the receiving of it, but how to feel love. Can you talk a little bit about the Sonja Lyubomrisky 11:08 impetus for this? Sure, and I would say that feeling loved is the most important thing, because we can be loved and not feel loved. And in fact, we, my co author, Harry Reese and I did a survey expressly for the book, and we found that 70% say that there's at least one relationship in their life that they would like to feel more loved in. You know, more frequent. 40% said they'd like to feel more loved by their romantic partner. And so really, like you can be surrounded by love, it's kind of like you can be surrounded by people but still be lonely, right? You can be surrounded by love and still not feel loved. And so the context for the book is really comes from my research on happiness, actually. And as you guys know, I'm a happiness scientist, and I've been researching happiness since 1989 so 36 and a half years, and mostly in 1998 when Bill Clinton was President, my lab pioneered what we call happiness interventions, right? So these are like clinical trials. They are clinical trials, but we're testing different happiness practices. So instead of testing like a vaccine, we're testing gratitude or kindness or, you know, optimism, sort of doing different things to be happier. And after all these years of doing this, these interventions, it hit me that almost all of these interventions that work to make us happier, the reason they work is they make us feel more connected to and loved by others. Right, writing gratitude letter to your son will make you feel more loved by your son. Right, doing an act of kindness to your best friend for your best friend will make you feel closer to your best friend. So almost everything is about feeling connected and loved. And so I really and Harry, my co author is a love scientist, so you know, he confirmed this for me. Basically, the key to happiness is feeling loved, and that's why the book is about feeling loved. Kurt Nelson 12:54 So how did you meet up with Harry? Because, again, you're a happiness research researcher. He's a love relationship guy. How did that connection happen? Sonja Lyubomrisky 13:04 Well, you know, he's, you know, we're in the same field as social psychology, so, yeah, you know, we met at conferences a long time ago. I think, let's see. I think it was 20 or Yeah, 20 years ago, 18 years ago. I think as I met him for the first time at a conference, we had a long talk, but we've been aware of our of each other's research, and then I think it was only like seven, eight years ago, really, eight years ago, that we started talking Okay. Kind of said to each other, why don't we talk to Why don't happiness? Yeah, and yeah, there's so, there's so yeah, like, because, and we already know, like relationships are sort of key to happiness, you know? And then we made this sort of leap that it's not just relationships. It's really feeling loved in your relationship. We define love very broadly, right? It's not just love for your magic partner, it's, it's your colleague, you know. Let's bring the word love to the workplace. You know, certainly friends, neighbors, family members, children, you know, parents, etc. Tim Houlihan 14:05 Yeah, so can we just get to you mentioned something important here that's worth distinguishing. Being loved and feeling loved are two different things. Sonja Lyubomrisky 14:14 Why is that? Well, because you can, again, it's kind of like you can be beautiful but not feel beautiful, right? You can be rich but not feel rich. You can be smart but not feel smart. You can be loved and not feel that, for whatever reason, that love is not sort of getting through, you know. And one, one, actually, metaphor we use is like, I have a cup of love, you know, and you're, you're showing love to me, and it's sort of filling up the cup, but maybe there's a leak in the bottom, and it's leaking out. So somehow, it's not quite, you know, I don't quite feel all of it, or maybe the lid on the top has a the opening is too small and it's not quite fitting in. So there's lots of reasons why that might be true, including, like, you're kind of not aware of it. You're not sort of reading the signals, right? But. Yeah, but yeah. But the point is that there's the feeling love that's that really matters. Kurt Nelson 15:06 Yeah, I love that. When you think about that. I mean, there's a there's a rationality of knowing that you're loved too, right? I mean, there's a part of this that there you can rationally know it, but it doesn't that doesn't always translate into feeling loved, if I got that right from your book, why? What is the I mean, if we I can see my spouse, I know my spouse cares for me and loves me, but I might not be feeling that. Are there similar to what you were just talking about, or Sonja Lyubomrisky 15:39 is there a different component? Yeah, I mean the cup of love metaphor, I think is really relevant to sort of anxious attachment style or dismissive avoidant touches them. If you're anxiously attached, maybe you're somehow not like somehow insecure about that. You kind of know it, but you don't quite feel it. I think there could be a lot of reasons for it, maybe because of your background, maybe because you have low self esteem. You know, we talk about the importance of self love and self compassion when you really love yourself. You know you're more likely to trust you know, when other people sort of showing you love, you're welcome to notice it. It's gonna kind of get in. You're gonna see it as more genuine, authentic. You're not gonna be suspicious of it. It's kind of a lonely person who's suspicious of other people's social motives. But you know, another thing that's really at the heart of our book is this idea that to feel truly loved, you need to feel or to be known, to be really known to the other person, and so if the other person doesn't know you, so let's say you're someone who really holds things close to the vest you really like are very private. We know all know people like that, yeah. And in fact, we all have walls around us, like all of us, you know, all we all walk around with these walls around us. It's natural, it's human. You know, we use those walls to protect ourselves, but we also prevent from other people, other people, from really getting in, right? And so if you, if the other person doesn't really know you, we argue, you're always going to wonder, would they love me? You know, would they still love me if they knew me right? Like, how can you really trust someone's love if the other person doesn't really know what you are inside, you know? Like, what does that even mean? Like, who are they loving? You know, because they don't really know you, right? They don't know you. Sort of quote true self. And so at the heart of the book is, sort of, how do we what do we do to become more known to the other person. And also, how do we really know others? Because, because feeling loved actually starts with you trying to make other people feel loved, which is actually beautiful thing, you know, how do you get to know the other person in a way that makes them feel more loved? Tim Houlihan 17:38 It's this fantastic reciprocity thing, isn't it? Sonja Lyubomrisky 17:40 Absolutely reciprocity is one of the most powerful norms of social behavior, right? So the idea is, if I want to feel more loved, say like, and actually had this experience with a family member where I wasn't feeling as loved by her as I'd like to be, and as I was thinking, I guess we can kind of back up a little bit. What do most people do when they don't feel loved? They think like, I need to make myself more lovable, right? Maybe more wonderful, or show that I'm a good person. You know, I'm smart and interesting and kind and funny. We're all trying to do that, right? We're trying to impress each other. That's what I'm trying to do right now. Like, I want to impress you, and that might impress you. You might think, yeah, she's smart and interesting, but it's not gonna, I'm not gonna feel loved, because I'm just gonna, I might, I might be admired, right? So and so that with this family member, I was sort of trying to think, What can I do to change myself? Or maybe I need to change her somehow, try to get her to love me more? But really, that's that's the wrong approach. And we say in the book that it's not about if you want to feel more loved, it's not about changing yourself. It's not about changing the other person. It's actually about changing the conversation that you're having, you know. And when you think about a relationship, it's just a series of conversations. And so the first step if I want to feel more loved, like with this family member, is to make her feel loved first. And that's where, and the idea is with reciprocity, she's gonna, we hope, reciprocate and do the same thing for me. So that's, that's what really the book is about. How do you how do you make the other person feel loved? Kurt Nelson 19:04 First, we, we've had Nick Eppley on the show a couple different times. We had, he's actually at our 500 episode launch, and so he was with us in person, and he talks a lot about, like, those that conversation and the conversation we and obviously that's what strangers a lot of his work has been on. But he does dig into just the the fact that we don't have those deep conversations that we always feel like the other person isn't necessarily wanting to go as deep as we would potentially like to do. Is that kind of what you're talking about in some of this. Sonja Lyubomrisky 19:42 And by the way, Nick Apollo, who's a friend I was just emailing you with, with him today, he literally he his work is cited all over our book and and one of my favorite set of studies of his is that people think if we, for example, asking deep questions of someone else, you. It's gonna be awkward. We're gonna people are gonna think that we're nose deep and actually no. People crave to be asked like they want to have. If you have a deep conversation, people like you more. They'll feel closer to you and so, yeah. So a lot of how to get how do we when we really get to know each other? How do we get to know each other by having deep conversations, not by having small talk, right? Yeah, yeah. Maybe small talk, you'll get to know a little bit something about me. I like basketball, you know, but it's not, it's not going to make me feel loved and so really having deep conversations. So the first step in making another person feel loved is really just to show curiosity in them, to ask them those questions. It has to be genuine to really help them take those walls down a little bit. So I get to know Yeah, so I get to know you. So you guys, I want to get to know you a little more. I'll ask you some deep questions. You start small, right? You want to read that room, so I might say, hey, what's been on your mind lately? Or I'm not going to go right away into your relationship with your parents or something. Maybe you want to, maybe make sense. You want to be asked, right? And then, and then. The idea is that I ask you those questions. I show curiosity, just show enthusiasm. The three magic words, right? Is, tell me more. Tell me more. Tell me more. Tell me more. And so start opening up and then, and then you and then I listen. And then as you're opening up, I'm truly listening. I'm not just mentally rehearsing my answer. We call it listening to learn instead of listening to respond. And so yeah, and then that's and then you're sharing, I'm listening, and then hopefully you'll reciprocate, and then show curiosity in me, and then help me share a little bit more, because again, you want to get to know me better, too. That's part of the process of feeling more loved. Tim Houlihan 21:40 Yeah, Kurt and I have talked about this in the past, about how some people are just sort of naturally better than that, but these are skills that you can learn. It's not just DNA, right? Sonja Lyubomrisky 21:51 No, no, but it's hard. It's hard. It's not it's, I guess I would say that the instructions are pretty simple, like, you know, show curiosity, ask questions, listen, don't try to don't think about how to respond when you're listening. Just someone gave me this great idea, which is, when you're listening to someone, imagine you're watching a film. Like, when watching a movie, we're not rehearsing an answer or response. I mean, unless we're like, writing a paper on it, or we're a filmmaker, we're just, like taking it in, like it's just playing in front of us, maybe it's a conversation and we're just listening, right? Or we're watching. And so imagine when someone's talking, it's like you're watching a movie and you're just taking it in anyway. So we can all learn that, but it's not easy, and you do need emotional intelligence. You know, there you do need to kind of read cues. So when you're sharing a little bit about yourself or gage your you're gaging the other person's interest? Do they want to hear more? You know, when you're asking them questions like, How deep should you go? You know, because you because pacing is really important, right? You want to kind of, maybe ask a little a little something, and then middle and then, you know, deeper and deeper you Kurt Nelson 22:55 you use an analogy in the book about a seesaw. Is that what you're talking about? Sonja Lyubomrisky 22:59 Yeah, different ways of saying it, right? The seesaw is basically like this. It's an underwater seesaw. You and I are sitting, you know, so Kurt, you and I are sitting on the seesaw, and most of ourselves are submerged under the water because you don't really, I don't really see most of you. Maybe I only see the positive side, because that's the side that you're showing me, right, and you only see the mother side of me, and so, but by showing curiosity, asking questions, listening, the idea is that I'm sort of pressing down on my honestly, helping lift you up a little bit more of the water, and helping you share a little bit more. And then you're sharing more. I'm listening that that makes you even feel even more safe to share a little bit more. Again, it's a slow process, yeah, and then the idea is that you'll reciprocate, and then you'll, you'll lift me up under the water. So that's why we kind of like this, like reciprocal process. Kurt Nelson 23:47 Well, there's a, there's a vulnerability about that, though, too. Because, as you said, you know, oftentimes that part that's above the water is the, is the really good stuff about us, that we like to, that we're trying to maintain an image for other people. So is that, that vulnerability that comes with, like, sharing, is that part of the issue why we don't do it so much? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Sonja Lyubomrisky 24:09 Vulnerability is a really important piece of it, because we tend to share, like, sort of our highlight reel, right? Yeah, parts of us that are the good parts, and whether it's in person or on social media, right? And that's totally normal human, you know, very human to do that, because, again, I won't impress you. I want you to think that I'm interesting and virtuous and and smart, and I might succeed in impressing you, right? But I'm not going to forge a connection with you if, if I'm just sharing the positive part. So vulnerability, but the vulnerability doesn't have to be, like, revealing some deep trauma or secrets right away, and it's just more showing a little more of yourself, like, I think you know, what's your real opinion about that show that everyone loves but you, maybe you don't love as much, right? That's not necessarily. I mean, it's a little vulnerable because you're kind of showing that you're different. But so it doesn't have to be. Be going that deep but absolutely like and again, the idea is, if I don't show those sides of me to you, those vulnerable pieces, I'll always wonder, like, would you still love me if you knew, if you knew those parts of me? So it's really important that you know at least some of those parts of me. Tim Houlihan 25:19 Oh yeah. So so well said Sonia. One of the parts, and I'm going back earlier in the book, that I really loved, is the common beliefs about feeling loved, the if only beliefs, the if only inhibitors, right? If only I were more attractive, I'd feel more loved. If only I was could make sure that only my positive qualities were were known, I'd feel more loved. And it reminded me of the poet David White, who writes about If only, if only this and and Roy Baumeister, is the power of regret, this anticipated regret in our life, like, what like we're going to make decisions about how we behave based on, if only I do this, or if, if I don't, and why? I guess. I guess my question is, why are these such huge inhibitors? Why are these, if only beliefs, such massive moderators, right? Sonja Lyubomrisky 26:10 By the way, thank you for that just, I just wrote down David White and thank you for that tip. Yeah, so interesting. Well, the if I were more accomplished, successful, higher status, more power, more money, more beauty, more fame. You know, I'd be, yeah, I'd be happier. I'd be more loved. Like, those are those extrinsic goals, and it isn't like this fascinating, right? Like, I Why? Why are they so compelling? You know? Because, because we know that it's not going to get us whether, neither happiness. Well, I mean, at least striving for them is not going to get us happiness. I mean, it could be. I often go back to evolutionary theory, because I think that kind of explains almost everything you know. Maybe you know, sort of evolutionarily adaptive, sort of to to have to be successful, basically, to have sort of more power, status, Spain, beauty than others, because that's what's going to get you mates. That's what's going mates, that's what's going to get you you know, more whatever, food, shelter, safety and so maybe we sort of Yeah, like, kind of over generalize. But research shows sort of repeatedly that it's not those things they're going to sort of make us happier. But we think like, yeah, if the other people, if only they knew these positive qualities. Yeah, so that I have that I need to brought. I need to pursue those things again, money, power, beauty, fame, status, accomplishment, and then I need to broadcast those things and hide my imperfections and my contradictions and my weaknesses and shortcomings, which we all have. But again, if you hide those things, and the other person won't really again when they're loving me, what are they loving? They're loving this, this little part of me that I'm showing to the world and nothing else like I won't really feel that's authentic, right? I mean, it's not their fault, right? Because that's Tim Houlihan 27:55 all they see the Oscar Wilde quote. Then which one? Yeah, which one? The you know, you might as well be yourself, you know, the because Sonja Lyubomrisky 28:02 there's no one, yeah, like, because there's no one, or something like that, yeah, or there's no one else, Tim Houlihan 28:06 yeah, everyone else is taken exactly. Sonja Lyubomrisky 28:08 I think we have that quote as a book, yeah, yeah. Lots of examples where people Yeah, like, you just don't feel when someone doesn't really know you, you just won't really feel that that love coming towards you is just not going to feel genuine to you. It feels like a Kurt Nelson 28:27 very difficult way to go through the world though as well. I mean, there's that part where, if I'm hearing you correctly, that you're always having to maintain a front in front of people, because at sub subconscious level, you're afraid of not having that love if you show some of these weaknesses or other parts, right? Sonja Lyubomrisky 28:55 Maybe, unfortunately, it sounds like maybe in childhood, you know, like you felt like love was conditional, but the whole that word like unconditional love, right? I love you even if you show me this shortcoming or weakness of yours, yeah? So what was I gonna say? Yeah, yeah. I think we all do it. Obviously. We do it differently with different people. You know, we're hope, I would hope that for everyone, there's at least one or two or three people in their lives that they are able to kind of see be more, kind of show more of their fuller selves to, but not to everyone, but I guess I would, I would, I would recommend to show more of your full self to like other people, to more to more people you know could be appropriately. It could be to colleagues. It could be to to sort of neighbors. There's this, I keep coming back to this sort of famous story of after the Bay of Pigs, John F Kennedy went on TV and admitted he made a mistake, and, you know, and that was very vulnerable, and his approval ratings shot way up after that. Now he's Kennedy, right? Maybe that one doesn't work for everyone, but it. Is interesting, right? That? Like that, being vulnerable kind of at the right place, at the right time. You know people like you more, not less. Yeah, it's the pratfall Kurt Nelson 30:09 effect to a certain degree, and like a loving skill, though. Yeah, no one's ever okay, Sonja Lyubomrisky 30:14 no one's ever connected that. But I like that. Kurt Nelson 30:22 Hey, grooves. We want to take a moment away from our conversation to thank you for listening to behavioral grooves. If you enjoy the conversations we're having and want to help us keep the groove going, here are a few simple ways that you can support the show. Tim Houlihan 30:35 First off, subscribing to our sub stack is a great way to stay connected with us between episodes. The weekly newsletter provides you with cool insights that are beyond the episodes, and they get delivered straight to your inbox. And if you haven't Kurt Nelson 30:48 already leaving a review or a rating of the podcast on a platform like Apple or Spotify or YouTube, helps other curious minds discover us. And there's two great things about that. One, it gives us a boost, and two, it costs nothing and it only Tim Houlihan 31:05 takes a second, but it makes a huge difference for us. Plus, we love hearing from you, so don't be shy. Leave us a review or give us a Kurt Nelson 31:12 quick thumbs up. We're coming up on 500 episodes, and we're doing this because we love the conversations we have with our guests. Tim Houlihan 31:19 Yeah, we also want to do it because we love bringing you insightful behavior, changing content every week, and we hope that some of those insights will help you find your groove. Kurt Nelson 31:31 Well, Sonia, I want to, I want to go the I love, the your kind of the you know how to feel, love the five mindsets that get you more out of what matters most. What is it? You guys are talking about five, obviously mindsets and different things. What are again, we don't have to go through all of them, but you know, kind of, for our listeners, kind of overview why you're talking about mindsets and what that does for helping us feel loved. Sure, sure, sure. Sonja Lyubomrisky 32:01 Well, we were thinking like, this isn't a, like a self help, like step by step manual, right? Like, where you, like, we tell people do these five things and then you'll feel more loved, or you'll make other people feel more loved. We really thought of it as more of a embracing a mindset, kind of an approach or perspective, and so I and it really makes sense to me, because a mindset, it's like something you put on, like a coat you put on. So, for example, listening right? Next time you have a conversation, think of yourself as a listener and not a speaker, right? And then you kind of put on this coat, which is sort of the listening to learn mindset, where your your goal is really to listen and learn, like learn as though there's a you'll be tested on it the next day. And so that's one of the mindsets. And so I really like the idea of mindsets of just yeah, as I said, the kind of approaches that you take on, because they actually involve lots of steps, you know, or sometimes few, sometimes a lot, kind of depends, you know. And so, you know, when, if you want to make someone else feel more loved, I kind of like to think of it as you start with curiosity. We call it the radical curiosity mindset, and something you really can't fake. You know, you people can tell when you're really curious. It's so rare, right? It's so rare. It's so compelling and powerful when someone is really curious about you, like they just can't wait to hear your answer, right? Or to hear your story. You know, when we're falling in love, that happens, right? But, like, it doesn't happen very often. Like, when was the last time someone was so curious about you? Right? Like, and, you know, we know charismatic people tend to be very curious about others, which is partly what draws everyone to them. So, yeah, so you start with curiosity again, like you embrace this sort of mindset, like, I'm going to be curious. I'm going to approach other people with wonder, very important, especially with long term relationships or friends. You know, where we often stop being curious about people that we've known for years. We think we sort of know everything about them, like we sort of stop asking them questions, but there's always something new going on in their minds, new feelings, new doubts, right? New dreams and fears and so curiosity. Start with curiosity, listening, you know, listening to learn. Mindset. Then we have the sharing mindset, which is really at the heart of knowing and being known, right? Is like, I'm sharing vulnerably. You're sharing at the right pace, right? Don't dump everything at once. You know, read the room. So that's, that's three already, Kurt Nelson 34:23 yeah, well, that's good, well, and I love this idea of like, like, it's a like, something you wear. I always think of mindsets as their mind settings, right? So you turn the dial on your mind, and you set your mind to a different, different setting. It's like, I'm in that, you know, listening mode to really understand now, and that, I think, is a really wonderful way of thinking about this, and it's a very practical way, like you said, it's not step one, step two, step three, here, here you go, but it's like, all right, in this situation, I need to be more in this sharing component. Or I need to be more in this that I can set my mind to say, All right, this is the mindset that I need to have. Sonja Lyubomrisky 35:06 By the way, I think I've gotten more thoughts or ideas from you guys than any other podcast I've been on because of no no, because usually, you know, ask questions and no no. And this is amazing, because I'm taking notes. So the mindset thing, are you thinking even more like a radio or TV, where we're turning channels is like, you're going to the right channel. Or are you thinking of it as, like turning the dial up versus down on certain things? Yeah, both. Kurt Nelson 35:28 Right. Yeah. I mean, that's exactly it. When I think about it, it's that, you know, there's a certain part that it goes to 11, right? Okay, so we can turn it up to 11, or it is. It's like finding the right station on we're all old enough here to remember the days when Sonja Lyubomrisky 35:45 you actually had, I was gonna say that, like, nowadays people don't really like, Kurt Nelson 35:50 yeah, my child wouldn't understand that. You know, there literally Sonja Lyubomrisky 35:55 was a dial. And although, I mean, I still have actually a radio on my in my car, that really does, yeah, still has a joy, yeah? And mostly just interference, you know, but Kurt Nelson 36:06 static in between, yeah. Sonja Lyubomrisky 36:08 Anyway, yeah. So, yeah, yeah. I love that idea. And yeah, and there's just so much. And then once you're in that, on the on that right station, or wearing that coat of that mindset, then a lot of things can, you know, can come to pass. I actually also made me think of someone was just telling me how, when you're speaking a different language, or you're you're like, kind of code switching. You're like, literally, are putting on it's like, it's like, oh yeah, someone said it's kind of like, you're sort of downloading that cultural script, you know, suddenly, like, I'm Russian. Like, when I speak Russian, I'm a different person than when I speak English. And so it's a little bit like that. It's like the mindset of, like the dialing in, of like my Russian Ness script, like I'm going to be more open, maybe I'm going to be more emotional, maybe I'm going to be more physical than when I'm sort of in the American script, you know. Anyway, so it's also a little bit like that Tim Houlihan 37:00 well, and for you, those things are unconscious, right? That the that that switch is is not happening consciously. Is that correct? Sonja Lyubomrisky 37:09 Right? Right, right? Exactly. I think people almost don't realize that there's but. But now we're saying, do this consciously, for these, for the mindsets. If you want to, right, you want to make the other person feel love like consciously put on the curiosity and listening mindset, Tim Houlihan 37:24 yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it I want to go back to a comment that you made earlier about self Gosh, not self preservation. What was it self respect like and a lack of self respect and how that can have a negative impact on you. Are there other sort of predominant kinds of psychological tendencies or biases that that can jam us up basically and get in our way when it comes to feeling loved? Sonja Lyubomrisky 37:54 Yeah, sure. Well, some of them, we've already kind of talked about this sort of these pair, like, there's a paradox, is this vulnerability paradox, which we've already talked about, yeah, that we think, like, if we want more vulnerable, people won't like us. Actually, it's often the opposite, again, at the right time, at the right place. There's a paradox of transparency, where we sort of assume people can kind of see, you know, like, know what we're about, and they don't, actually, so we need to share, you know. So the sharing mindset is actually one of my favorites, because there's lots of really good research about how to share, about kind of the impact of sharing on others. Like, actually, a study just came out recently had people from opposite kind of political spectrums sharing something vulnerable and it was beautiful, right? So they might share like, I'm really struggling with my son, and then that Maga person is sharing they're struggling with their son, and suddenly they feel more aligned, and they feel more sort of curious and compassionate towards each other, you know, from just from sharing. So it's kind of beautiful finding. Tim Houlihan 38:56 I gotta find that paper that sounds fantastic. Kurt Nelson 38:59 Yeah, I loved your idea that the transparency part, though, because, and I'm an n of one, so I might be way off on this, but there are many times like I just expect my close loved ones to know what I'm thinking and feeling at all times without me telling them. And so therefore they should know that I'm sad, and they should come and give me a birthday cake, or birthday cake like ice cream or something to cheer me up. And then they don't. And then, even worse, I'm sad. Why didn't you realize that I made a sad face and you didn't recognize it? Sonja Lyubomrisky 39:35 You know? Yeah, you know what I read. Actually, when it comes to romantic you're talking about sort of different people in your life. But when it comes to romantic partners, this actually comes from, like, romanticism. You know, this ideal of, like, romantic love is a, like, if you truly love me, like, you'll know what I'm thinking and feeling of all time. Yeah, you know, then we get, you know, very upset, you know. And you know, you sort of go, there's. Heard the story, or you sort of the story is like, a couple is coming back from a party, and the wife is like, really, you know, upset the whole time, and she's and the husband is like, what? What are you upset about? And she's just like, I can't believe you don't know something happened at the party. And then she comes, you know, she goes into the bathroom, she slams the door, and again, it's a romantic ideal that like you know you you should know what I'm feeling anyway, but this is but the paradox of transparency is kind of more general. Unknown Speaker 40:33 Switch gears over to truthful. Tim Houlihan 40:37 All too familiar. Let's switch gears back to an earlier comment you made about bringing love to to work colleagues like what we just talked to Marcus Buckingham had this wonderful, you know, collegiate discussion about about designing love into the workplace and into your work. Wow, I'd Sonja Lyubomrisky 40:55 love to hear more about that. Um, yeah. I mean, I don't have a lot to say, other than I just think love is a beautiful thing, and we need to, and again, define broadly. You know, my colleague Bob Frederickson at UNC Chapel Hill, she wrote a book called Love 2.0 A while ago, but it's still really great and relevant. She talks about drops of love. You know, imagine like you're just talking to the barista, kind of like the Nick Epley research, and you feel like, somehow, like you share something important. You both feel kind of human at the same time, you're in sync. And it's like, it's like a little drop of love. I mean, I love that idea, like more, more drops of love in our life, you know? And then with colleagues, like their colleagues, right? Their colleagues that you love and that they love you. And what's wrong with why don't we use that word? And I understand, you know, maybe it could be dangerous to say that too much, but we, we associate the word love so much with the romantic context. And like to say, I love you in a romantic context, it seems like such a big deal, right? Like, oh, they said I love you to me. And so, so maybe that's, that's the hurdle. But, like, I use that word all the time. In fact, I my kids often get confused because I'll be like, on the phone, and I'll give you so much, and they're like, mom, who are you talking to? And I'll be like, Oh, I'm talking to my friend so and so my friends and I say I love you to each other all the time. It's beautiful. And I hope more people, more people do and in the in the workplace as well. Like anyone that you feel love for, say it out loud again. Nick Epley does research showing that we hesitate to reach out. We hesitate whether it's to express gratitude, to give a compliment. I love the compliments research is like if you're thinking, Oh, I feel love for you right now, or I'm so grateful you're in my life, I value our relationship. Thank you for your help. Like, just say it. You know, most of the time we don't say it or write a text. You know my favorite, writing text to people and saying, I love you. Kurt Nelson 42:49 Or we had, when Nick came and was speaking at our engage, we had 80 people there, and he did an experiment. And I love the he had people talk for 15 minutes, three questions, I'm going to forget what these are. Tim, so sorry, but, but they were, they were, when was the last time you cried? When was, you know, I mean, they they were not. You're like, how's the weather Tim Houlihan 43:13 question, all were complete strangers. Kurt Nelson 43:15 Yeah. And these are talking to loved ones and the and again, when you know, all this research, right? It's that the expectation going in is, this is going to be horrible, I'm going to feel very uncomfortable. I'm not going to like this, and they're not going to want to hear this, and at the end, when they did, then they look at it, it's like, no, that actually brought us much closer together, and that we feel closer to that individual. I mean, many of these people like we're sharing their their contact information, and I we got to stay in touch, and Sonja Lyubomrisky 43:48 they're sharing, right? So curiosity, sharing, listening, right is also place we have. I'm actually, I teach a class every Friday. Actually, I just did this this morning, called Elevate, and it's just a zoom class. Anyone can take it and and we share different happiness tools. And lately, we've been having people go into breakout rooms. It's on Zoom and, and it's amazing. People come out of these breakout rooms and they're like, that was magical. I know today we talked about, in fact, one one session a couple of weeks ago. It was about actually asking, asking deep questions. So we said, Okay, say something that's happening in your life, and then have the other person ask questions, and they're like, Wow, that was so amazing, because we don't ask enough questions of each other. Today we talked about taking a more self distance perspective. So like, you have a problem, you know, how would, like a friend think about the problem? Because when you're immersed in it, it's like, you know, often very emotional and so anyway. So the point is, like, yeah, being vulnerable with each other is incredibly powerful. Tim Houlihan 44:46 Can we talk a little bit about happiness? And your work on happiness? Because you have Sonia, you we have been talking about Sonja Lyubomrisky 44:53 happiness because all of it, yes, Tim Houlihan 44:54 okay, okay, fair enough. But I'm so glad that you mentioned early on that you've been. You run a happiness Sonja Lyubomrisky 45:01 lab, right? And I have, for 36 and a half years, I guess that's true, because part of that was grad school. So I guess since 94 so 32 years, I've had a happiness lab, yeah, and we do, we mostly do happiness interventions study, sort of, what are the factors that you know contribute to happiness? And right now, actually, my lab is really focused on how to get people to feel more loved and connected. Not surprisingly, you know how to get people to have conversations that are deeper. So, you know, like, we have a study that we're just finishing, finishing running, where we have people have a conversation with a stranger, and then we give people instructions, actually for three mindsets, either to share vulnerably or to listen, to learn or to show curiosity in the other person. So we'll see. We don't have the results yet, and then we also have sort of no instructions. Sort of, how does that conversation going to go differently when people are prompted to place the mindsets? But anyway, yeah, so we're, we're we're studying what makes people happy, and right now we're really focused on connection. Can't wait to Tim Houlihan 46:02 see what that stuff gets published. That's fantastic. Yeah, okay, I hate the idea of asking a question like, Okay, so in the last 36 years, what's the number one thing to do this? I'm not going to ask that Sonja Lyubomrisky 46:15 because I think, well, no, but I'll answer it, because the number one, my number one happiness. I have a, I have a you have one. I have one actually, okay, I have a TED Talk. It's just, it's just five minutes, and it was literally like my number one happiness tip. And actually they we, I think maybe they edited out this particular way of saying it. But basically, if you are going to do one thing today to be happier, and this is actually following really negatively, have a 15 minute conversation with someone, right? A 15 minute conversation, at least, but ideally, I mean, Nick talks about the importance of having really any conversations, right? Even this talk with a barista or the person next to you on the train is going to make you happier. And I absolutely that's true lots of ways that that's going to just feel like you just feel like you're more connected and you're all we're all human. And it also could lead to deeper conversations. But I'm interested in sort of the 15 minute conversation being a little deeper, you know, showing curiosity, listening, sharing, showing warmth and acceptance. I'm actually working with a company right now called choose t, w, O, S, where they literally, that's the reason that I'm like, working with them is, like, is they're doing exactly that? I'm like, Oh, cool. Like they're getting strangers together. They're kind of matching strangers for 15 minute conversations. And so it doesn't have to be a stranger, of course, to okay to have that, to be to get happier. But that's, yeah, that's my number one tip is, sort of have a conversation on average is going to make you happier. Sonia does Kurt Nelson 47:40 that to dig into that a little bit. If I have that 15 minute conversation with Tim today, and then Tim tomorrow, and then Tim the next day and the next day and the next Unknown Speaker 47:54 day, should I be already doing Kurt Nelson 47:57 sometimes I just get tired of having these deep Yeah. Switching it up. Is there any research that shows, like, or is it okay? I mean, yeah, like, I will have deep conversation with my spouse on a regular basis. Is that? Is that? Sonja Lyubomrisky 48:11 But we do adapt. So actually, my second book, so I have my first book is called The How of Happiness, which is about happiness strategies, right? The second book was called the myths of happiness, and that's really about your to answer your quite, a whole book that answers your question. It's about what's called hedonic adaptation. Yeah, we do adapt like we do. We get a few a little bit fewer rewards over time for, you know, if it's the same person, but you can change it up. Of course, you can have a different conversation with with Tim that you normally do. I mean, it doesn't have to be always, like, very deep, you know, it could be sort of different, but, but, you know, yeah, but you also can talk to other people. When I say about curiosity, we stop asking questions of the people we know, because we were like, Oh, we kind of know them. But there's always again. Think about it. Like every day, Tim or your wife is having new thoughts, new experiences, new feelings, new self doubts, new fears, new hopes, right? You know, really new every single day. And so there's always something new to discover about that person. And so I, I love the I love that idea, yeah, you can always Yeah, ask ask, be curious, continue to be curious about each other. Tim Houlihan 49:23 Yeah, I feel like I'm always so good at just recycling my same old problem. Kurt Nelson 49:28 I think that's why I'm bored of you. Tim, here's Sonja Lyubomrisky 49:32 one actually. Can I mention sex? Because I think this is I read. I read a very interesting article about consent and how, of course, we need to ask for consent when we're having sex with people, you know, especially new people in our lives. But what about you've been married for 30 years, and the article was saying you should continue asking for consent even if you've been having sex for 30 years. And I'm like, wow, that's interesting. But their point was, is that person is always changing, like, maybe that thing that you. Been doing for 30 years, like they're not into anymore. Maybe there's something new. And I it's just such an obvious point in some ways. But like, keep asking, keep asking. It's basically keep asking questions, right? Like, being curious, yeah, in all domains of life, I actually have a friend who's a sex therapist, and she would say, Yeah, curiosity during sex is actually one of the most important things that you can Yeah, like, practice, right? Kurt Nelson 50:24 So, very cool, yeah, very cool. All right. I was, I was gonna ask a question on gratitude, but coming after sex, yeah, I was, I'll just let that one go. There you go. Tim Houlihan 50:38 I we, I feel like we have to address the elephant in the room, and that's Gary Chapman's Five Love Languages stuff, Pulp Fiction or Science, you know, where do you land on that? Sonja Lyubomrisky 50:51 Yeah, sure. Okay, I'd love to talk about the love languages. And we have a little section in our in how to feel loved, devoted to that. So I love languages, you know, I talk about them a lot like, it's a, there's a fun heuristic, kind of like a game. I think of the love languages a little bit like, I think about astrology, right? It's kind of like a fun thing was unfair, but it's a, yeah, but it's like, it's a great heuristic, you know, yeah. But the idea has been, sort of been debunked for various reasons. Again, it's nice, it's a descriptive idea, but the reason has been debunked. Couple couple reasons. One is, of course, there's more than five love languages. There's probably 100 right? People can show love in so many different ways. The other, the other finding, is that it's actually really two love languages that all of us prefer, kind of on average. So it's not like, oh, there's all these individual differences. And the two I don't know. Can you guess what they are? Maybe you know what they are. Tim Houlihan 51:47 Oh, my gosh, it's physical touch. And no, no, no. Physical Touch is not Sonja Lyubomrisky 51:54 I love. That's my top love language. There you go. Most humans, like, will report the top ones are quality time and words of affirmation. Words of affirmation. Everyone wants to be told, I love you or you're great and quality time. I mean, sort of obvious, like, who doesn't want quality time? So those are the two that are top for pretty much everyone. So that's, you know. And then the other thing is that, yeah, that there's not, there's no reason, there's no evidence that you need to sort of match in your love languages, that and that's going to somehow affect like, how good your relationship is, or how long it's going to right? So it's really not about matching, it's about those two. You know, hopefully your partner shows those two. But it's also, the more ways this is, again, kind of obvious when you say it, the more ways your partner shows you love, the better. Yeah, not about one. Kurt Nelson 52:47 I just want this one, and that's, yeah, 12 Sonja Lyubomrisky 52:50 different ways amazing, right? Having said that, you know, I, you know, physical touches is my top one. And if I'm with someone who really is not good at that, like that like, that is going to be a little problematic. So, like, having said that, like, I think there's Tim Houlihan 53:05 there's something, yeah, okay, Sonia, we get to come to the part of our discussion where we get to talk about music, and you have some lovely musical references. Amy Winehouse, use the animals, I think, a little reference there. But I'm curious, were you listening to music when you were writing the book? Sonja Lyubomrisky 53:23 You know, I wasn't, because I cannot write and listen to music at the same time. Actually, I mean, I was talking to people about this because, in fact, actually my kids, some of them just like, really like to and I know people are different for me, even if it's classical music, even if it's something that's just like, there's no words, it's just too distracting, like, my brain is taking that music in, I guess, I guess I could interpret in a positive way. I'm like, I'm really, like, appreciating, you know, trying to sort of savor and hear the music. And it's weird to me how, yeah, but on the other hand, I can go to a coffee shop and for whatever reason, I shut out. I don't care, like, Tim Houlihan 53:59 really, yeah, all the background noise, all the conversation. Sonja Lyubomrisky 54:03 And maybe because music is something, maybe it's more compelling or something. Well, if it's one big conversation right next to me that I can't quite shut out, yeah, that's a problem. But if it's like, lots of conversations, and it's sort of white noise to me, yeah, okay, so I'm not like, listening to the conversations, actually, turns out the worst is phone conversations actually, this actually really interesting. Why is it that a phone conversation near you is so distracting? Kurt Nelson 54:29 You know, why are you trying to figure out what the other side is saying exactly? Sonja Lyubomrisky 54:33 It's like you can't help but, and that little bit of effort is, you know, taking your cognitive mental energy anyway, yeah? So I don't, I don't listen to music when I work. I just can't, Tim Houlihan 54:45 you just won Super brownie points, Sonja Lyubomrisky 54:47 right, right? Thank you. I mean, I can do it, obviously, if I'm like, you know, washing the tissues or something. I mean, I can multitask, yeah, yeah, not writing, yeah, Kurt Nelson 54:54 yeah, yeah, Tim. Tim is, yeah. We have different view. Tim is exactly like you. I. You can listen as long as there's not words in it, and actually, even sometimes when there are so there you go. Tim Houlihan 55:05 That's crazy. Sonia liberal Mirsky, thank you so much for being a guest on behavioral grooves today. Sonja Lyubomrisky 55:11 Thank you. That was a lovely conversation, really. I loved your questions. And as I said, I think I had like, four or five insights that I have to write down now from thank you for that. Kurt Nelson 55:21 Sorry to make you work. Sorry to make you work. Kurt Nelson 55:31 Welcome to our grooving session where Tim and I share ideas on what we learned from our discussion with Sonia. Have a free flowing conversation and groove on whatever else comes into our feeling loved brains, yeah, like they're getting a little massage our brains, Tim Houlihan 55:49 as our brains love, a Kurt Nelson 55:51 little love, they're feeling loved. Do you like that accent? That's really weird. I didn't even realize Tim Houlihan 55:59 it was an accent. Kurt Nelson 56:00 Sorry. That was there. Yeah. So what you think, man, I mean, you've known Sonia for a long time. So for you, this was like an old reunion. For me, whoa, Sonia fanboy I'm talking to, yeah, I mean, her work on happiness. Tim Houlihan 56:21 Oh, my God, fantastic stuff. Kurt Nelson 56:23 So fantastic over the years. Tim Houlihan 56:24 Yeah, yeah, years, yeah, 30 years she's had the lab. And so this was, it was really fun for me to get to talk to her just about the about the new book. And so I really like that. And I think the concept, this, this thesis, it's that the center part of the story isn't just about being loved, but feeling loved. I So dig that. Kurt Nelson 56:49 Yeah, I mean, and you know, it's this idea you can be surrounded by love, you can have a whole bunch of people who really love you, yeah, but you can still not feel loved, and that seems counterintuitive, that there is a miss there, but what Sonia brings out is it's the feeling of being loved that you feel love that is really at the core. And there's a difference between being loved and feeling loved, and we need to focus in on the feeling part, because the act of just being loved isn't doesn't necessarily necessitate into a good, Betty or happy life, right? Tim Houlihan 57:33 So, and I think people have felt that, I think that that's that's not an uncommon idea, and of course, it connects to to this, the cup of love metaphor, and then you're pouring, pouring, pouring, love, love, love, love, going into the cup, cup, cup, filling up, and then it Kurt Nelson 57:50 breaks, no, it has, leaks, right? Overflows. Love overflowing. Tim Houlihan 57:56 But it again. I think her thesis is really important to to keep in mind that it, it is something, and we'll talk a little bit about the mindsets, but it is about feeling. It's about adjusting your worldview. To say, I feel loved. I'm going to accept this, Kurt Nelson 58:13 yeah, and I do like that cup with a leaky metaphor, right? Because you can think about the leaks in the cup as being, you know, attachment issues, self esteem, lack of, you know, this idea of self knowledge. You know, the the idea she talked in there, I think about these highlight reels, selves that we have this idea of, you know, I thought that was something along that and so, you know, so, if the love is there, Tim, what stops it from landing what? So if we are actually out there and people love us, but it's not landing with us, what? Tim Houlihan 58:58 Why? Yeah, attachments, the big, the big, number one issue, right then, when we have weak attachment, or bad, you know, poorly formed attachments, we get anxious, and then it's like, I can't accept this. You know, the anxious Kurt Nelson 59:12 attachment, attachment style, Boyden attachment style, so those attachment styles from Bowlby and etc. So, yeah, yeah, Tim Houlihan 59:21 that that's, like, the, that's the biggie, that's, like, the big push away, like, I, I'm not going to receive this, I'm not going to feel the love that people are already giving me. Kurt Nelson 59:30 And I think there's an aspect of people, you know, oftentimes we have low self esteem. We don't have that sense of self compassion. You know, there's a whole bunch of past hurts and mistrust. And so it's, it's, you know what? What is the song you know? Who needs a heart when a heart can be broken? Who did that? Tim Houlihan 59:53 What got to do with it? By Tina Turner. Tina Turner, there you go. Kurt Nelson 59:57 Thank you. You know. But that's true. I mean, a heart can be broken, and so people don't accept that that love in because they're fearful they've had that happen to them before. And so we can, we can absolutely be loved and not feel it because of those components. Tim Houlihan 1:00:17 And if you've got any kind of history, you're going to have, if you have any kind of history of being loved and you know, breakups and things like that, it hurts. It just hurts, Kurt Nelson 1:00:29 even within love. I mean, there are ups and downs within any kind of relationship, whether that be a spouse, a romantic partner, a friend, child, any of those. Tim Houlihan 1:00:41 So what struck you about the mindsets? What was there an aspect, or was there one of the mindsets that really connected with you, because you said you've been applying some of this stuff in your own life? Kurt Nelson 1:00:53 So it's, it's. So I will take our second most quoted person, besides Annie Duke, Kwame Christian, right, and talking about compassionate curiosity and and mirrored that with Sonia's radical curiosity. So, yeah, right. It's this idea of so often we go through life just having things happen to us, having the world go by, we acknowledge it for a second and then move on without this idea of really having a curiosity about why, of understanding what, what's what's happening. We just kind of let things go and particularly when it comes to relationships. Tim Houlihan 1:01:43 And it's good, it's good to remember that the human condition has one mouth and two ears, right? That that, it certainly says to me that the listening is more important than the speaking, that we oftentimes fail to to just actually do that compassionate curiosity, that that radical curiosity, and get too much into, oh, I want to tell you about how I feel right, Kurt Nelson 1:02:11 and it's listening to learn right, not to respond as a cubby kind of component. But it's this idea of having that curiosity of like, help me understand, you help me like and there's that component where, when you do that, right, you're you're giving, you're asking them to share, and when they share or or you're sharing a little bit, and being vulnerable, right? This vulnerability mindset and the sharing mindset, and it becomes this, this give and take. There is a reciprocity that goes with this. Tim Houlihan 1:02:49 Yeah, I'd also go back to Nick Epley, where Nick eppley's work on having conversations with strangers, or really, just about anybody. It starts with, I don't know if I want to ask that question, because you know that no one wants to hear that question from me, right? Like, no. But actually, we do want to hear that question from you. We do. We want. We want to know how, what, what you think about something. Kurt Nelson 1:03:15 It's the assumptions that we make about what other people this is like, Nick's work and Sonia's work, I think, is absolutely fantastic about this. We are horrible, horrible at predicting what A is going to make us happy, but what other people, oh yeah, are going to find interesting or intrusive, or not intrusive or wonderful. We are not good mind readers. Who was it that told us, like, the best way to understand what somebody else is thinking is to ask them, What are you thinking? We can't, like, try to intone those through, oh, look at the way their body's acting. Let's decipher, you know, what they're doing, how their arms are, how they're looking. No, just ask them, and Tim Houlihan 1:04:03 it's that simple. It is that simple. Okay, so for having this conversation, if we're going to have this 15 minute conversation, we're going to ask questions. We're going to use our our compassionate curiosity and our radical curiosity. We're going to ask that maybe, maybe one of the most important questions of Tell me more. Tell me more. I want to hear more about that. That's an act of feeling loved, right? It allows you to feel loved if you just listen to the words, tell me more. You know, Kurt Nelson 1:04:33 again, going back to Marcus Buckingham and his his work about that, again, is focused in on love at work is not being It feels weird, but it's really not. I mean, when we talk about work, we talk about, I love that. I loved working with that team. I loved working on that project. Love at work is also a big thing, so you can bring all of that into all of this. So yeah, Tim Houlihan 1:04:57 I loved working with you on this project, like you. Brought a lot to this project that offer up ways that you can allow other people to feel loved, and then, as you mentioned earlier, reciprocate, open yourself up to feeling love. So when someone says, Yeah, you know that that was good, that was a that was a really good project, let that be a loving experience for you feel that love? Kurt Nelson 1:05:21 Yeah, I think that's, I don't know. Do you think that's a good place to Tim Houlihan 1:05:25 wrap up? I do. I think, I think it's fantastic. Actually, I do want to just say, just a shout out to Sonia, because it has been such a cool journey that she has been on in her happiness research. And I think it's just turned a really cool phase in this work on on love, and really pulling out an important aspect of our happiness cue and the mindsets that go into just feeling love. And I just want this big thank you. Shout out there Kurt Nelson 1:05:57 for Yeah, and remember to feel more loved that there's I'll take these takeaways from this conversation with Sonia, and you can you can change your mindset. You can actually do things that will make you feel more loved, that you know being loved is important, but you have to feel that. And so today's episode hopefully gave you some great tips and insights on how to do that, just apply those in your life, and you will feel more loved. Tim Houlihan 1:06:28 You know, not like our listeners are thinking about this, but a way that might make us feel a little bit more loved right now is if they left us a review, if they just gave us a few stars, if they just wrote two sentences and just went out and just said, Oh yeah, what I love about behavioral grooves is fill in, fill in the blank. That would be so cool. Tim and Kurt's Kurt Nelson 1:06:53 great, you know, banter that they have. I love that banter. Maybe I can go out and write that because I do. All right, yeah, another way people could share their love is by taking groove effect survey. And not only will we feel love, but the people who take that survey will be adding their voice to really important research and adding to the overall love in the world. Tim Houlihan 1:07:19 Yes, so grooves, we hope that this is a loving experience for you, that you take some love from it, that you feel loved from it, and that you use that this week as you go out and find your groove. You you. Transcribed by https://otter.ai