Kurt Nelson 0:00 Hey, welcome to behavior grooves. The podcast explores the behavioral science of our human condition. I'm Kurt Nelson Tim Houlihan 0:13 and I'm Tim Houlihan. We talk with researchers and other interesting people to bring you the greatest advice and insights that can help you make your life better. Kurt Nelson 0:22 And today, we're going to be talking with our old friend Brian Ahern, and this will be Tim. I think it's our third his third appearance on the show. Tim Houlihan 0:32 Is that, right? It is. Brian has been a guest on two previous episodes, and we love Brian. In fact, he was one of the first guest that actually walked into your living room. That's right when we were recording there. Kurt Nelson 0:45 So we were doing interviews live in person, back in the day, back in covid, days back when people used to get together. Tim Houlihan 0:54 Crazy idea, isn't it? I know, but this time, we're going to talk about something that's a little bit more personal than to Brian, then are other conversations just about influence in general. Kurt Nelson 1:05 Yeah. And for those of you who don't remember, Brian is an author and one of only a dozen Cialdini method certified trainers in the world, and he's also the founder of influence people and a faculty member at the Cialdini Institute. Tim Houlihan 1:21 Yeah, classic underachiever, right? So Brian has written a new book that combines his love of influence with his deep spirituality. It really brings together two parts of his life that mean a tremendous amount to Kurt Nelson 1:36 him, yeah? So Brian's new book, influence from above, takes a story approach which blends the principles of influence with biblical tenets, and the book follows his John Andrews character, who Brian introduced in an earlier book, but how he navigates this application of influence and ethically applying that in a faith based community. Tim Houlihan 2:03 Yeah. So our conversation overviews how the book idea came about, how important humility is bottle of Bing, and how blending faith and influence actually makes a big positive difference in the world. Kurt Nelson 2:16 Yeah. So we hope that you will find this episode interesting and insightful. So with that, we ask you to Tim Houlihan 2:23 sit back with a big pour of faith and influence and enjoy our conversation with Brian Ahern. Tim Houlihan 2:36 Brian Ahern, welcome back to behavioral grooves. Brian Ahearn 2:39 It is great to be with you guys. I'm looking forward to the conversation Tim Houlihan 2:43 we are as well. We go back. Do we where we were talking here before we got started? Is it eight years since you've been on the since your first when Kurt Nelson 2:53 you were in my living room at the dining room table? And you know? Yeah, it was early, Brian Ahearn 3:01 early 2018, before I left the insurance company. So yeah, eight years. Tim Houlihan 3:05 Wow. Okay, that's fantastic. So here we are, eight years later, and we still do the speed round with same kinds of silly questions, but this time, I want to find out, would you prefer to learn a new language or a new instrument? Probably a new Brian Ahearn 3:20 instrument, because I really don't know much about music, and that would be something I could do all the time. Tim Houlihan 3:27 Yeah, yeah. You wouldn't have to rely on if, like, if you learned Czechoslovakian like, you wouldn't have to just wait to be around czechoslovakians to use it. You could use music all the time. I like that logic. Kurt Nelson 3:41 I'm just envisioning Brian talking check to himself as he's walking around the house now checkmate practicing. All right. All right, Ryan, I think with like, one of the multiple times that we've had you on, we've already asked you about coffee and tea, so I'm not going to ask you about that, but I can't remember what you like. So that's a hint for you to kind of say, if you Unknown Speaker 4:07 like, I like coffee much Kurt Nelson 4:09 my wife's Yeah, I knew that. I remember that. Yeah, that's, that's right, exactly. Speed Round question. You have the chance to live in a 35 year old body with your 95 year old mind, or live in a 95 year old body with your 35 year old mind. Which would you take? I think Brian Ahearn 4:31 I would take the 35 with the 95 because I would physically feel so much better, and I would have 95 years of experience to make judgments on what I would do going forward. Kurt Nelson 4:43 I like that. I like that. Tim Houlihan 4:45 I like that too. Again, good logic, absolutely, good logic. Brian Ahearn 4:48 I'm analytical. In every one of the personality tests I think, alrighty. Tim Houlihan 4:55 Third Speed Round question, does true influence you? Basically mean, everybody needs to get to yes, Brian Ahearn 5:04 no, it doesn't, because a yes isn't the appropriate answer for everybody. I mean, I may think I know what's best for you, Tim and Kurt, but I don't fully know you, your lives, your situation, so I'm trying to influence you in what I hope is is a good decision for you, but it may not be, and so therefore no would be the appropriate answer for you. Kurt Nelson 5:24 Excellent, okay, last of our speed round questions, do we need more humility in our leadership? Brian Ahearn 5:35 Absolutely, the older I get, I think the more humble I have become life circumstances and a number of things and and I think that's a really, really good thing. And so Absolutely, we need more people who are humble in terms of our leadership well, and Kurt Nelson 5:53 you got you talk about what we'll get into this later, as we as we get into the book and various different pieces, but it's a key piece. I think of part of the lessons that you're trying to convey from from the book is that, would you say that's correct? Brian Ahearn 6:07 Yeah. I think all the great leaders that you look at, especially spiritual leaders, have a humility. And some have great humility because they are confident in who they are, what their message is. They don't have to force people, they just have to speak the Tim Houlihan 6:21 truth, to follow up. I love this. Your perspective on this Brian, because humility in it varies so much among especially corporate leadership. When I think about the number of organizations that I've I've worked for, humility kind of comes and goes. And do you think that there's a correlation between humility and as you said, as you're growing older, you're identifying humility and having a more humble attitude as being more important. Is there a correlation? Do you think between age and humility? Do you think that older leaders tend to get to this place of humility, maybe faster or better or more realistically, than younger ones. I don't know Brian Ahearn 7:05 that leaders necessarily do. I mean, if we look at a lot of the leadership that we see in our country, our states around the world, I don't know that we would characterize very many of them as humble, Kurt Nelson 7:15 but I think a lot of them are very old, so that out there, right? You got these old, non humble leaders, there you go. But I Brian Ahearn 7:22 will say, a lot of the regular people, people, friends, family, individuals, I know that over the course of time, they start to realize that. You know, when you're young, you think you have all the answers, you get older, and you know you don't have all the answers. And you're young and you are you can be a lot more brash, and some of that is our chemical makeup, especially guys, testosterone. Then you get older and you start realizing the value of questions. And what I've seen, at least for my life, I think, is experience learning things, what to do, what not to do, but also, coupled with I am not the same guy I was when I was in my 20s and 30s, just hormonally, I don't get worked up about the same things. And so that mixture of I realize certain things aren't so important, and I don't react the same way, I think, adds a lot to that humility where I don't really care if certain things happen. You know, I Tim Houlihan 8:17 want to follow up on that, because I was been reflecting on this recently, because I have a daughter in the corporate world who is relatively young in her career, and getting really uptight about a situation that as she was telling me, I was thinking, why are you spending the energy getting uptight about this? And then I realized, well, my perspective is I've been through that five times like you talk about experience, right? It makes it that experience does make a difference. Where that 95 year old mind and 35 year old body, it does make a difference. I think Brian Ahearn 8:50 we do have an opportunity to to speak to that. And hopefully, you know, if people really look up to us, respect us, that they'll take that wisdom and try to apply it. I remember early in my career where I was I mean, this goes way back to when personal computers were relatively new on desktops at work, and I was tasked with downloading information from a mainframe and creating sales reports. I put a sales report out and got a scathing letter from two people in one of our regional offices. And I remember looking at the letter. I can remember exactly where I was standing, and my thought was, my self worth is not tied up in this job. And I folded it up and I let days go by, and then I addressed it point by point with my boss. I just wanted him to know, unbeknownst to me, he passed that on to the CEO, who sent a message out to the company and basically said, when I put Brian in this role, it was not to become the resident sob in the company. If you have any questions about his work, I'd appreciate if you'd direct him to me. And so he had my back, and if I would have responded in the heat of the moment, I wouldn't have written the same letter to my boss that I. That I did and so huge lesson learned about sometimes just put something away, allow the emotions to subside, and then start looking at it from a more realistic perspective. Kurt Nelson 10:10 All right. Well, we are speaking with our old dear friend Brian Ahern, who we've already talked about we met in 2018 but we're talking with Brian about his new book, influence from above. Brian, can you start by just helping us understand who did you write this book for? You've written a bunch of work on influence and kind of your work with Robert Cialdini and a variety of those factors, but influence from above. Who did you write this book for, and why this book? Brian Ahearn 10:41 Well, the first thing I'll say, Kurt, is I only write books, so I have a reason to come back on your show. Tim Houlihan 10:48 Get in line. Get in line. Kurt Nelson 10:49 Yeah. What is that liking? Yeah. There you go. Brian Ahearn 10:54 Okay. So the book was prompted by the question that my daughter asked after she saw me do a presentation here in Columbus. She hadn't seen me for about a decade. And so we had lunch the next day, and I asked her about what she thought, and we talked about it, and then she asked the question that prompted the book. She said, what I want to know dad is, where is God in all this? How does he fit into what you do, the psychology you teach? And so we had this wonderful impromptu conversation, and that was the spark for the book. The book is is written for people who really like Dr cialdini's work around the principles of persuasion, to give them a different way to look at it. It's also written for people who are maybe in a faith based community, who might struggle with influence because they equate it to manipulation, or they want to just be able to to have influence with integrity, and I think then giving that that biblical support allows them to feel really comfortable looking at that psychology and seeing how it can put into be put into practical application. Kurt Nelson 11:56 This is a narrative story. So tell a little bit about how you structured the book. Because I think our listeners not having understanding this might be thinking, Oh, this is a typical, you know, nonfiction book, but it's, it's, it's more of a story, right? Brian Ahearn 12:10 So, so I had written a book called the influencer secrets to success and happiness, and that looked at the life of John Andrews you, you met him when he was born, and you follow Him through college career, etc, and how he learns about influence from mentors, bosses, coaches, et cetera. The book ended with him leaving his corporate role in his mid 50s, so I always knew there'd be another chapter, maybe another book with that. And then I decided to continue his story, as he is retired, and he's starting to say, Okay, well, what's next? I can only go on so many vacations, play so many rounds of golf, you know? What is next? What's the next purpose for me? And he begins to discover that through his church, as they have a community center that they want to build for their community, and he is asked to be a part of the team that shepherds that. So he has to take all the things that helped him be so successful in business, which is to understand how to ethically influence people, but to recognize that a faith based community is different than a corporate community. And so how does he blend his understanding of biblical tenets with these principles of influence? And that's what the story does. And then you see it play out in real time, real conversations between he and a whole host of people. Kurt Nelson 13:31 Hey, grooves, quick break from the conversation to talk about something we don't bring up enough on the show. Tim Houlihan 13:36 Yeah, that's right. When we're not behind the mic, we're working with organizations to apply behavioral science in ways that actually move the needle for leaders, teams and whole cultures. Kurt Nelson 13:48 So whether it's designing smarter incentives, boosting engagement, setting goals that actually stick, or helping teams navigate change, we bring real science to real workplace Tim Houlihan 13:59 challenges, and we don't just talk theory, our approach blends research backed insights with hands on strategies that drive results. Now we've seen small behavioral shifts lead to big wins in Fortune 500 companies and scrappy startups, and even in mission driven nonprofits. Kurt Nelson 14:16 Yeah, and we bring the same curiosity, creativity and care to our client work that we bring to every episode of the show. Really, I Tim Houlihan 14:25 think people might want more than what we bring to the show. Kurt Nelson 14:29 You you probably have a point there. Tim Houlihan 14:32 You're probably right. Okay, so we'll bring more care and creativity to our work with you and your teams than what we do on the show. Kurt Nelson 14:40 Yes, more care. So, so if you're ready to build stronger motivation, better team dynamics, and maybe even make your workplace a little more groovy, yeah, reach Tim Houlihan 14:51 out to us. Grab us on LinkedIn or Facebook or just drop us a line. We'd love to help you and your team find your groove. You. Tim Houlihan 15:03 Okay, so now I'm interested in making sure that Kurt isn't on mute and then, and then getting, getting back to is the story more of an allegory, or is it more of a straightforward like, this is John's, this is John's life experience with an explicit moral message, compared to an allegory that might have more of a hidden moral message. Brian Ahearn 15:28 I would say it's, it was the latter, that it's the more of the straightforward. It's not like, you know, what is the book I'm thinking of, Pilgrims Progress, or, you know, something like that. This is, I think, something that people can very easily envision. You know, here's a guy who spent time in a corporate world. Maybe they're part of a faith based community. Maybe they've been a part of building fund campaigns and things like that. So I think there's many, many things that are going to be very familiar to people, to be able to connect to the story, and then again, you you follow Him. And my goal is to have people see how to use influence with integrity. I mean, it's always been a thing, but the ethics of it, but, but really, I think showing people how there is also this foundational support through Scripture. Tim Houlihan 16:19 Yeah, just to follow up on that. This, this confluence of faith and influence, feels like it's virgin territory. This, it seems like you're kind of pioneering this connectivity. Are you aware of a lot of literature out there that already exists on this? Brian Ahearn 16:37 I have never come across a book that that took, like cialdini's principles and blended them or supported them with with faith based principles. And even even Bob didn't, you know, when he emailed me after he read the first draft, he said it was totally unique. He'd never seen anything like it, and he loved it. So with this book, I really feel like I have put something in the world that is uniquely Brian Ahern, and how Brian sees influence and faith and how those two come together. Tim Houlihan 17:07 Yeah, fantastic. Kurt, can I follow up with one more? Because I'm wondering as so you've got a story that is focused on how to, how to bring these two things together. Have you? Have you met any resistance or pushback? Like, no, no, those. Those are two separate things. Like, just keep them out of the same story. Like, we've got we've got faith, we've got influence. They don't need to be combined. Brian Ahearn 17:35 I have not, but I think you know, somebody who follows me has seen me write about faith at times over the years, so it's no surprise. It's not like, where did this come from? I did have a couple people who like through the Cialdini Institute, all the people who've gone through training and things like that. And I reached out to anybody who was a part of the Cialdini Institute community to say, Hey, I got a book coming out, and I'd love it if you would maybe take a look, if you feel led, to maybe promote it. I had two people who came back and said, I really can't do that because I don't believe in biblical tennis and I'm atheist and and I said, I respect you. I first of all, I appreciate that. You just got back to me to tell me that, but they were still kind enough to say, you know, I really hope the book does well, but it's just not something that would probably resonate with me. I had one individual who said something along those lines, said he was more agnostic and and I said, Well, if you you're already a follower of Cialdini, and if you believe that, even if you don't see Jesus in the way that many people do, if you think that, you know, if people live by the things he talked about, the world would be a better place. You still might find it interesting. Kurt Nelson 18:47 Yeah, I think that's an interesting piece. And you start, actually, at the very beginning of the book. You were talking about the finding those biblical passages that that align with some of the things that you're talking about, and you go, the one that stood out really easy is, you know, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, right? Dude, did I say that, right? Did I get okay? But what so help us understand, how did you How was that structure done, and how were you pulling out some of those tenants from your faith into how that then parlays into the influence component of it? Were you literally lines from scripture, or was it more of the general component around Brian Ahearn 19:37 that there's like every every chapter opens with a biblical passage, and then I try to reinforce that through the title of the chapter ties into that passage. And then you see how that plays out. Back in the 90s, I was leading Bible Studies at work. I was leading Bible study here at home, and I really for my. Self, wanted to understand what the Bible had to say. You know, many people talk about it, and they've never read it. So I not only read it, I started writing down all of my thoughts, and that became 1000 pages, almost like a commentary. As I started in Genesis and went all the way through revelation, I was looking at different Commentaries, study Bibles, listening and thinking for myself. Well, what does this mean? So I had a pretty good foundation. Now, I don't remember everything that was that was a long time ago, but, but I feel like I had a really good foundation to start from, and then just started looking for certain passages that I think would clearly show support for the different principles. So towards the end of the book, I've got all the principles listed, and I've got seven verses for each one, and those are by no means exhaustive. I'm sure other people who would read through the Bible might say, Wow, here's a verse. Brian didn't mention that, but here's a verse that really ties into reciprocity or scarcity or something like that. I don't think people wanted a commentary, but to be able to show them just there are many, many passages and all of those truths have have existed for 1000s of years. Robert cialdini's Work puts a framework around that so we can say, oh, you know this, this advice here, well, that's scarcity. This over here that's tapping into social proof. Tim Houlihan 21:28 Actually, I love that. And of course, Bob wrote influence with the very explicit purpose of being ethical, of using these tools for an ethical purpose. Do you think that there's a meaningful difference between a moral version of this and moral version of the influence persuasion principles, excuse me, and the moral and the ethical. Do you think that there's a Brian Ahearn 21:54 meaningful difference Brian, I do in that ethics, when we outline ethics and we give the rules, it's human nature to say, how close can I get to the rule, to the to the limit there, or how, how much can I go beyond it and still be okay? And if anybody doubts that, I would just ask them to assess their driving on the highway. I mean, there is a speed limit, and most people are going to bump up against it, but against it. But really, most people are going to go, like, four to nine miles over, thinking, Oh, I won't get pulled over for going that. But I think that's a picture of our human nature. And so if I define what the rules are, the limits, it will be human a tendency to bump up against that. And so, as I mentioned when we were talking earlier, my framework of people, I have altered it when I speak to faith based communities or companies, my acronym is powerful everyday opportunities to persuade that are lasting and ethical, and I've changed the L and the E. So it's powerful everyday opportunities to persuade that are loving and eternal. And the reason that I chose that biblically, the command is love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, love your neighbor as yourself. Do these two things and you fulfill the whole law. Because if I really have a focus of pleasing God and loving you as I love myself, doing unto you as I would do unto myself, I am going to treat you well, because I want people to treat me well, which means I will never lie to you. I will not hide the truth. I would not use cialdini's principles in a way that is manipulative and untrue, like false scarcity or social proof. I will always be looking out for your best interests, not just mine. Now what I just said there is really the framework for ethics when we talk about being an ethical influencer, but I don't have to worry about those things when I'm saying I want to be pleasing to God. I want to be doing right by my neighbor, I just naturally begin to fulfill those things. And so that's part of the reason I made that change for those faith based communities. And then the other part is the eternal I have come to a realization that my life has had an eternal impact on the world, in that if I hadn't chosen to marry Jane, there would be no Abigail Ahern Tyler would not have married her, there would be no Emmet. I don't know how far that goes, but my mere existence has had an impact on eternity, and I want people to understand that, that when I'm trying to have a positive influence with somebody that has a potential for eternal impact, it can go well beyond just making a particular decision. So when it comes to eternal impact, an example happened today where I had coffee with a friend. We've known each other since high school. We were getting together to talk some specific things, but we ended up steering into relationships, and I started to realize that I can have an eternal impact with. Him, I offered. I said, Hey, if you want to keep talking, I love these conversations. I'd be happy to give an ear to you, because too often guys don't have conversations like we're having right now. And I know that that can have an eternal impact. I mean, if I can say or do something that helps him strengthen his relationship with his partner to where they move on and they're they're more happy and content and at peace with each other. Who knows what comes from that? And I love that. I love thinking that my life in existence is having an impact on eternity. We've had, Kurt Nelson 25:33 oh, go, I'm sorry, Tim. We've had a number of guests on recently that have talked about love and not not the romantic type of love we've had people who have been on about talking about the need to bring the term love back into workplace, and that's the idea that we we kind of poo, poo it and push it away. It's something different things love, about how we love each other, and just an agape kind of way of that larger component. And so I'm really interested when you bring love as that, the L part of people, and what you just talked about, for me, it actually hit more as a love component with your friend than even the eternal component of it, because it's showing that loving, caring aspect of of us as human beings, right? So I not really a question there, but just comment on that. Does that? Does that resonate Brian Ahearn 26:37 with you? Well, I think the thing that will have the biggest impact on somebody for an eternal perspective, is to love them. And I think that you're right in terms of how we've pushed that word out, or we've watered it down. We focus so much on things like, I love ice cream, that's not the same thing as I love my wife. And even somebody saying that they like could say I love my wife. There's different degrees of love, and the Greek has different words for it. When I talk about love, it's agape, and agape means putting the other's well being above your own and doing what you can to support that person and their well being. So CS Lewis had a great line where he said he realized, how do I love somebody that I don't like? And he came to the realization that there's somebody he always loves but he doesn't always like, and that was himself, right? We all have those parts of ourselves that we really dislike or or even hate, and yet we still act in our best self interest. And that freed him up to say, You know what, I don't have to like the person to love them. I can still take action that is in their benefit, even if it costs me something, and that's really what love is. But I think a lot of times when we do that, feelings start coming around, because we start seeing those people in a different light. And I think we are wired that when we help people and we feel good about that, we also start feeling good about those people. So taking that step of love can really start changing everything from your perspective, but also from that other person's perspective. Tim Houlihan 28:11 Let's get back to leadership and humility, because I think that this is really a key part of of you know, Cialdini has always talked about how leaders, you know, have this outsized voice, and that the way that they use in the persuasive principles. They need to be careful about that, because they have this oversized voice. Where do you see this fitting in Brian? Where do you see humility fitting in with the principles of persuasion these these days from from where you're sitting today, Brian Ahearn 28:45 a couple of things come right to mind. The first would be with the principle of liking right it's easier for us to say yes to those we know and like, but it's never about me getting you Kurt or you Tim to like me. It's about me doing what I can to come to like you. And I think that's a much more humble approach than trying to puff myself up and make myself interesting so you will like me. It's more humble for me to focus on you and how I can come to know and like you guys. And then when it comes to reciprocity, right, I become naturally desirous of helping those that I know and like, and because I get to know you, I also understand how to give to you, and so I can give in ways that are more authentic. They're not the give to get. They're a give because I genuinely have come to know and care for you. And so that's I think that's really where I start seeing humility come in, right at the very beginning, and then it informs how I use all of the other principles, for example, like, I wouldn't use scarcity as a scare tactic to get you to say, yes, you know, I'm going to use scarcity if it's there, because I genuinely don't want you to miss what could be a great opportunity for you, right? Kurt Nelson 29:53 Yeah, it's it's interesting, because at the surface level, humility, all. Almost feels opposite of trying to influence somebody. There's a there's a certain aspect of that, where I am, if I'm if I'm being humble, if I am, that I am not trying to sway you to my side of of an opinion. And yet, how you talk about it, I think is really interesting, because it lends to, probably, more of an authentic leadership style it presents itself into for the vast majority of us in our personal relationships, we like having people around us that are going to, you know, not be over domineering all of the time, and kind of understand I have my limitations, too, and let's, let's work through all of these things that you we associate with being humble. Brian Ahearn 30:49 Yeah, well, I don't remember who said it, but I love the phrase humility is not thinking less of yourself, meaning like, whoa. I'm just terrible at this, and it's thinking of yourself less so. You're you are not you are not the focus of your thoughts and how things are going to be impacting you. You are focused on others and how things will impact others. And again, that's where I think love comes in. Love we naturally do what's what's best for our self interest, but we need to get out of that mindset to say, wait a minute, how can I best serve other people? So it becomes an other focus that I think people recognize that humility, because you're not thinking of yourself and impact on you, but you're thinking of them. Tim Houlihan 31:35 You know truth is important to you, and sometimes you've presented difficult truths. You know that might be challenging, and I'm wondering if you've ever had the experience Brian of of having some twinge of regret at confronting someone with a difficult truth. Brian Ahearn 31:52 If it was truth, then I probably don't regret having approached them. I might have regretted how I approached them. I'm thinking of somebody when I was leading a cohort through the Cialdini Institute, and somebody didn't want to participate in the way that we wanted everybody to participate, and I thought it was really important. I I sent what I thought was a very thoughtful email about why it's really important. And this person had so much that they could contribute, but I think initially they were feeling like they weren't getting very much in return, and they didn't respond to the email the way I thought. I thought it was really good email laid out some examples, and so we had a difficult conversation. I think there were points in that conversation, if I look back, I would probably do things a little bit differently, but I don't regret that I approached the situation, because what I saw was, I think that person respected that I had a position, why I had that position, and supported it, and ultimately they came around, and now they're one of my biggest advocates. And I don't know that I would have gained that kind of respect if I hadn't challenged that, that situation Tim Houlihan 33:05 well, and and you followed through with it. You followed through with more conversation, not with a combative No, you know, get in your place. What I said is what I said, you know, back off, buddy, yeah. Brian Ahearn 33:17 And I gave them the freedom. I said, you know, if, if this isn't if you can't do this and be a part of that, I understand, and I understand if you say I'll just step out of this, it's not for me. Gave them the freedom to make the choice themselves, but they ultimately made a choice to stay, and they're very thankful that they did, and they ended up being a huge benefit too to the other people, because they were so good at what they did that everybody benefited from that. But I think this individual also learned a lot from the other people Kurt Nelson 33:46 too, well. I think there's an aspect of authenticity there, right? That you're, as Tim talked about before that truth part, you're you're telling your truth. How you see it, you're doing it in a humble manner, hopefully, where you're open to saying, I might not necessarily have all of the information here. So here's how I see it, and if I get information that I can actually then change my perception, if that is indeed the case. But it is that approach that is authentic, humble in a loving manner. So all of the things kind of coming together in some of these examples that you're Brian Ahearn 34:29 talking about. The example that I shared with the person is when I did taekwondo with my daughter, and once I got my black belt, I was expected to start leading some of the classes. And to be honest, those workouts were not nearly as good as when I was getting to just focus on all of my techniques and things. And it was a little frustrating at first, because I'm like, I'm going, but I don't feel like I'm getting much of a workout. But then you start realizing what you're learning as the teacher, and how somebody took time to give to me as a teacher to get me to where I am, and that started to change my perspective, and that. Perspective. I was hoping they would latch on to they didn't, via the email, and so that's where it was with a follow up phone call where we had the conversation in more depth. Tim Houlihan 35:11 Yeah, in influence from above you, there's sort of an underlying theme of writing the book for influencing hearts, not just minds. Can you, can you tell us about that? Brian Ahearn 35:22 Sure, I think that when we are influenced, we start changing to different degrees, right? Especially the principle of consistency. If, if I influence you to take a step in one direction, and I can influence you to take another step, all of a sudden, you may start walking in that direction without any influence from me at all, because you are your self identity might be changing. Example, when I started running, I hated running. I loved lifting weights. But once I started running and I fell in love with it, my whole self identity changed. I saw myself as a runner first, and I just started naturally doing what runners do. So if we can, I always tell people, if we can touch people at their core, so not just changing their behavior, but if we can change how they think and feel, that's usually what gets to the heart level, and that internal change as an influencer. The good thing is that means I don't have to try to influence you all the time, because you start moving in a direction that I thought was probably good for you, and you've realized is good for you, and now we're both better off for it. So that's really, I think, where some of that heart change comes in. It's when it impacts our self identity and we start becoming a slightly different person, one decision at a time. Kurt Nelson 36:35 Yeah, yeah. So Brian, the book's been out for a little bit now, and we're wondering, what have you been hearing from readers? What have people, what are some of the stories that you heard about how this book has, you know, made a difference in their lives? Brian Ahearn 36:55 There are two that parallel each other, and they came within the span of about a week. So I had been on another podcast, and a guy named Jim was a co host, and after the podcast, we'd had no direct interaction. We were connected on LinkedIn, but no direct interaction. But he left me a voicemail, and he said, I really have to talk to you about your book. I don't want to just send an email or a text. So I called him up and he said, your book arrived, and I thought you sent it. I said I didn't do the book. He goes, but I found out my assistant saw it and bought one for herself, and thought I would enjoy it. So when it came, I'm like, oh, Brian. I know Brian. I remember he was guest on the podcast. So he said he started reading the book, and he said it's almost as if I was living the story. Because he said he's he's moving to another city, and he's part of a church, and he's been asked to be on a building committee, just like the lead character. And he said, all the things that I'm reading are paralleling exactly what I'm going through now, funny thing is, I'm thinking, in my mind, if you're on the building committee, you should buy a copy for everybody on the building committee. And without any property, he goes, I'm buying a copy for everybody on the building committee. Kurt Nelson 38:09 Yeah, there you go. Brian Ahearn 38:11 About a week later, another another guy. Now this guy I've had regular contact with for the last six years, so Mike calls me up. He's like, you're not going to believe this. And he starts going through, and it's the same thing. He's being asked to be a part of this building fund campaign. And he's reading about John, and he's like, this is exactly what I'm going through. And I think, again, you should buy a book for everybody. And he goes, I'm buying a book for everybody on the building campaign. But it was so it was so neat to see what an impact it was having. You know, for both of these guys, they're faith based guys. They said it's like God speaking to me through this like it is more than a tap on the shoulder that I'm supposed to be reading this and digesting it and putting this out into the world in in real time. And so those are some of the most gratifying things that you can have to see the impact that what you're doing has on other people in their lives. Tim Houlihan 39:09 Absolutely. Yeah, Kurt Nelson 39:10 all right, have to ask Brian, is John? Is John Andrews your secret Alter Ego? Brian Ahearn 39:18 No, when, when I first wrote the book, well, partly because he marries a girl named Abigail, and that's my daughter, so that'd be weird. But I really when I wrote the influencer, and thinking about these different characters, the guy that I worked for named John Petrucci, was just one of the best, straight up good people. I knew he just did the right thing, because it's the right thing to do. He loved Chaldee and his work. And so in my mind, this guy, John, lived a pretty good, pretty clean kind of life. And I was thinking of my boss, John. So he has traits, I will say, especially in this follow up book. Influence from a. A he has traits that I aspire to. I mean, I don't always do things as well as maybe he does as I was writing. So it was good conviction for me to think about even more deeply how I go about influencing people. Tim Houlihan 40:15 Yeah, that's great. You know, Brian, since for as many years as we've known each other, you know that Kurt and I are always interested in how interested in helping people find their groove and and what could you say to our listeners who are trying to find their groove? That would be sort of that would be stimulated by, by your book, by influence from above. Brian Ahearn 40:38 I think for most people, whatever that groove is, a lot of their success is going to come from their ability to get people to say yes to them. You know, as a musician, Tim, you had to get people to say yes to bring you in so you could do your thing right, so you could enjoy what it is that you do and share it with the world. But if nobody ever said yes to to to your proposal to play at a venue or an event, you wouldn't get to share that thing. And I think most people are going to face that it could be the dream job. Got to get somebody to say yes to you as the right candidate. You love. Sales prospects don't become clients until they say yes to the proposal. Leaders, it won't matter how good their mission, their vision, their values are, if they can't get people on board to say yes. So I say pursue that thing that really jazzes you up, but recognize I need a skill set here to get those opportunities. Otherwise I don't get to do the thing that gives me so much joy. Tim Houlihan 41:40 Yeah, well said, thank you. That's a terrific answer. This is a slightly philosophical question for you, but if persuasion was a musical instrument, what instrument would it be? Brian Ahearn 41:52 My first thought that just hit me was probably a violin. Oh, okay, and not that I've ever played the violin, but I think sometimes about when you hear somebody play something that's just soothing and just seems to kind of flow, that that's what influence is. Influence isn't about grab you in the moment. It's not about big, grand gestures. It's about the little things that we do consistently. And I tell salespeople, you know, there's to get to a yes to the proposal. Is a whole series of yeses to get to that point, right? And so that's why, I guess I think of that kind of soothing violin, kind of long song that gets you to a particular place by the end. Tim Houlihan 42:38 Yeah, yeah. Excellent. Thank you. Kurt Nelson 42:41 I like that. So, all right, so Brian, I went back, and I was looking and I don't think we asked you, we talked to you about music in the prior episodes, because that's what Tim does, right? And so we both do that. We both do that's it, but, but we've been asking a probably past couple 100 episodes. People this question about if you were stuck on a desert island for a year? Yeah, everything you need all kind of there, but you're there by yourself, and you could bring along a device that only could contain the entire catalog of two musicians or bands that you you know would want to listen to while you're on that island, get every song that they've ever you know, participated in, worked on, so it's there, and not Just an album, it's the entirety of everything. Which two musical artists would you choose to have on that listening device? Brian Ahearn 43:49 One that comes right to mind would be frank, Sinatra, okay, just, I don't know Bowie's enjoyed his voice and hearing the lyrics, Kurt Nelson 43:58 and he has a large catalog. So audio work is you get a lot of it's not just 10 Songs that you're listening to over and over and Brian Ahearn 44:09 over again. Now, if I only had to stay on the island for the length of songs, I would have chosen a different artist, right? Be often a week, or whatever, another one. And this might be a little bit cliche, but I've always enjoyed the Beatles and seeing their progression over time. They've got a large catalog too. But, you know, as a kid, I remember listening to them so much and, and kind of feeling bummed that, like, wow, they broke up. You know, I'm listening in 1974 75 and, and thinking this band is so great, and they broke up. And so they were kind of formative when when I was younger. And so I think it would be Frank Sinatra and the Beatles. So you were, you were a Beatles Tim Houlihan 44:51 fan when you were younger. Brian Ahearn 44:52 Yeah, had the had their different albums, literally, albums playing on a record. But. Yeah, and so yeah. I mean, I just felt like I kind of went through those pre teen years and listening to The Beatles a lot, and not recognizing at that time what a classic, iconic band they would ultimately be. Because, of course, nobody knew if they were going to get back together, what the future might hold for them, but, yeah, I just really enjoyed listening to all of their songs. Kurt Nelson 45:27 Do you have a Do you have a favorite Beatles after the Beatles music? Is it John's work? Was it George's work? Was it Paul's work? Ringo's even has all star band. Yeah, all star band. I mean, is there one of those that you align more with that I love Paul McCartney and Wings, right? Brian Ahearn 45:49 Yeah. Or it'd be Paul McCartney and Wings, because I remember that band more than I remember the other guys. I started liking some of the John Lennon stuff later, and then I remember I'm in high school and he's assassinated, and how sad that was, and just thinking, like, wow, I'm really starting to enjoy some of the songs that I hear by him alone. And now that's done, it's over, but Paul McCartney and Wings got pretty big in the early 70s. He I don't know, yeah, what he did that seemed to elevate him more, but he was certainly out there more. So I listened to that more. Kurt Nelson 46:26 I just saw him a few months ago in concert for the first time. And I mean, the guy's 80 years old, right, and it's just amazing, like his voice is still fantastic, and the show he put on was absolutely, like, wonderful. So, yeah, it was very cool. Tim Houlihan 46:47 But getting back to Sinatra, you know, I just want to say that I think that I don't ever remember in the 500 episodes plus that we've done, anyone saying Frank Sinatra, and I think it's a brilliant choice, because you've got all these different periods. You've got all these show tunes and these musicals that he did. You've got, he's got his his course, sort of the the swooner stuff, the, you know, the really luxurious romantic tunes. You got a jazz episode. You've got a whole jazz chapter in his life. I think that that's a really cool and then the bossa nova stuff, like, he was an early advocate for for Brazilian Bossa. And there's a really broad catalog, as I think about it. That's a that's a pretty sophisticated choice there. Brian, well, he's Brian Ahearn 47:33 he's got so much. His voice is so great. His my favorite song is The Way You Look Tonight. It makes me think of Jane So, yeah, there's just, you know, as I got older, I started appreciating what I consider to be older music, like that, but I really started listening to the words. And, you know, if I hadn't chosen him, now that we're having this discussion, I think the other would have been Johnny Cash, because that was another one who I drink longer, until later in life, and then I'm like, holy cow, this stuff is so good. Kurt Nelson 48:05 Yeah, the, I mean, a again, multitudes of different things, but his covers for his last three albums, I believe it was almost exclusively covers of different words. Then, yeah, yeah. And, I mean, some of those songs are just like he reimagined them to such a point that, yeah, just made them his, which is just, it's a awesome, awesome way of thinking about I got writing songs or doing songs. I got in touch Brian Ahearn 48:35 with his music when I was at church and on Easter they played hurt and Oh. And it was so moving that I was like, I gotta listen to this song again. So I then I bump into when a man comes around the album and and then I'm like, well, let's go back and listen to some other Johnny Cash. That was 2020, years ago, because I remember my wife and I driving down the road. She had a Saturn view, so an SUV, and she's like, our daughter's 10 at the time she goes. Do you ever think you'd be driving an SUV? Listen to the Johnny Cash with a 10 year old in the backseat. No, that's not what I envisioned life like, but I Kurt Nelson 49:12 love it. Yeah, it's very cool. Her interesting. I love it's one of my favorite cash songs. And Trent Reznor, who actually wrote that, talks about like when he heard Johnny's version of it, he said that song is no longer mine. It's now Johnny's. So you know, which is, I think, one of the biggest testaments you can say for how somebody you know reinterprets the work that you do. So we just Tim Houlihan 49:37 got exposed to the essential Brian Ahern here. This is the faith guy combining his his scientific curiosity with, well, where do we go with with, you know, where do I started here with Johnny Cash? Where does Oh, it's this record. Oh, what about this back catalog? I love that. Love that about you, Brian. Kurt Nelson 49:57 Brian, thank you for being a guest. Today again on behavioral grooves. Brian Ahearn 50:03 Well, it was my pleasure. I thank you for giving me space to talk about something that's so important for me, faith, but something I also have a passion for, which is influence. And I think when we get off today, I'm going to start thinking about my next book, so I have a reason Tim Houlihan 50:17 to come back on writing. Thanks so much, Brian. You're welcome. Kurt Nelson 50:31 Welcome to our grooving session where Tim and I share ideas on what we learned from our discussion with Brian. Have a free flowing conversation and groove on whatever else comes into our faithful brains? Tim Houlihan 50:43 Nice, very, very nice. You know, can I just make a personal comment about we've gotten to know Brian fairly well over the over the last years of our podcast, he always is a guy who is so articulate. I it. I don't want to say I envy him, but I, but I kind of envy him, because he's so he's so good at bringing about like he has an idea, and then he just speaks the words that is that idea very specifically. And I really admire that about him, not like us, basically. How do Kurt Nelson 51:17 you describe us? What do we do? We we have an idea, and then we meander. Is that what you would describe? Tim Houlihan 51:25 Yeah, I would say that we have an idea. And then we we start thinking that if the path goes left, then we're probably going to lean left, but we also need to be ready to go right. And then we go right a little bit. And then then we just fall off the whole damn path. Kurt Nelson 51:40 And then we go, Oh, that looks cool over there. Let's take a let's sojourn over to the left more. Oh, look over there. So we're just like dogs that, like, all of a sudden, are headed down a thing. And then squirrel. Is that? What you're saying? Unknown Speaker 51:57 Squirrel? Yes, a little bit Kurt Nelson 51:59 of that. Yeah. Oh, I all right. I thought you were gonna go with how nice Brian is and just what a kind and generous and wonderful person he is, even though he went to the Ohio State Tim Houlihan 52:15 ixnay on the eighth state, I don't even know how to do Pig Latin for Ohio. Kurt Nelson 52:23 I don't know. We know a couple of nice people from Ohio that went to we know. My God, all right, all right, let's get back in. Let's not get back in. Let's get into our conversation with Brian. Where do you want to start? Well, I'd like Tim Houlihan 52:43 to start with this idea about ethics and morality. Okay, you know, Brian was asking, how close can I get to the line? And the the interesting thing for me in my, you know, Roman Catholic training of ethics and morality is that ethics is like the external rules that we live by. These are the these are the things that we say we're going to have these ethical rules that that everybody's going to agree to, yeah, and it's going to be how we treat each other, and, you know, things like that. But morals is like the internal code. Morals are the more or less the internal rules, if you will, that that I am going to subscribe to now they they might be the same moral fabric that lots and lots of other people have, but, but the morals tend to be more internal. So that's how I'm going back to my college education in in business ethics and class and philosophy and classes like that. So which, which was only three years ago, by the way? Kurt Nelson 53:54 No, it was. Is that ethical? Is that moral? That you just totally fabricated what you just Tim Houlihan 54:01 said there. It was just sarcasm. So I hope it was taken to sarcasm. Kurt Nelson 54:05 Okay, there we go. So, so again, I mean that that right, there is an interesting component of this, right? So there are times where, ethically, if there was a rule about not lying, you just trans, you Why Tim Houlihan 54:21 did over that I did. That's right, that's Kurt Nelson 54:23 right, but morally because we understand that that is taken in jest, that morally acceptable. I have an interesting thought, when you were talking about like morals being internal, so let's use this driving the speed limit, example, right, right. So it's a great ethically, there's a 65 mile per hour speed limit legally. Tim Houlihan 54:49 That's illegally, legally. Kurt Nelson 54:52 So, so, okay, so that's the legal part. Ethically, what? What is the ethical part is that, like everybody, kind of drives 70, and that's okay. The ethical part of it, the social norm, yeah, Tim Houlihan 55:04 well, the it is, I think it's informed by the social norm, but it says we need to treat other people with respect. Okay, so if I'm driving 70 and I'm treating other drivers with respect, I'm living within the ethical boundaries of of of acceptability. Kurt Nelson 55:21 What if my morals say I'm perfectly fine and driving 150 down this freeway because I'm a good driver and I'm going to do that, and how does that fit in with all of this? Well, because if I'm understanding what you're saying about this, if that my internal compass is saying that's fine, even though it goes against the rest of maybe 99.99999 to whatever degree, people who are saying, No, that's dangerous and scary and that is wrong. Or how would you take that? Tim Houlihan 55:59 You still have to pay Caesar what's due to Caesar. So there is a law that we have to abide by that says the speed limit is Kurt Nelson 56:08 but I never got caught. There was no cops out on this Montana straight freeway. And if Tim Houlihan 56:15 your principles, if your moral principles, your internal rules say, I am a good person, even when I do this, or when I do this, this makes me a good person. If that is your moral code, then you're living morally and ethically. You You just are because that though, if that's actually part of your principle, then you're living morally the ethical implication is the outs, the external rule, are you treating other people with, with respect, for instance? So you know, are there? There's certain outside rules that you're not abiding by, and if you're not running into anybody else, maybe ethically, you're okay. Kurt Nelson 56:58 So let's think about this in year. Tim Houlihan 57:01 Legally, you're in the slammer, though, Kurt Nelson 57:03 if you so, no, but you love philosophy, right? You would bueno, bueno, right? So what is that called when there is, aren't there, aren't there different philosophy schools, one talking about the greater benefit for everybody. One that is more internally I need to satisfy myself, right? Is there am I miss? I'm not the ethics you know, scholar like you are, or that philosophy scholar like you are. Tim Houlihan 57:41 Yes, well, I'm not a scholar in philosophy or ethics either. I'm going back to undergrad philosophy and ethics courses. Kurt Nelson 57:50 You read philosophy for fun. Don't give me this shit. Tim Houlihan 57:56 Yes, there are different schools of thought, but And yet, and those are influenced, actually, those schools of thought have either influenced or are been influenced by different religious sects, different different ways of approaching spirituality. You know, there are different in Buddhism has a very different way of looking at morality. In fact, I would say the Buddhists don't even express morality. You know, that's not about having all these internal rules. It's a it's about it's about one rule. It's about sort of living in harmony, and that drives the external ethical rules. But that could be very different from Islam or Christianity or Judaism. It everybody's got a slightly different moral code as to what I should be living to or adhering to internally. And then what are the outside rules that are going to make that happen? Kurt Nelson 58:54 Yeah, that's very, I mean, it is fascinating. And I think Brian brings in, obviously a very Christian centered approach to in this book, he would say that right away. And I think it was really interesting, because this, this part of ethics and morality. And then he brought love into, you know, agape and kind of the larger love, and, you know, love for God as well as love for others. And it's all an interesting mix of how that works, and an interesting mix when you bring it in with influence, right? This idea of marrying these two, this idea of All right, so, are you being loving? Are you being ethical when you're influencing somebody else, or how you're influencing somebody else, yeah, and Tim Houlihan 59:47 if we get back to sort of the fundamental ethical external rule of treat other people with respect, Brian is saying the way that you treat someone with respect is that you just tell. Them. There are only three more TVs at this price. There just are. It's, this isn't a scarcity ploy. There's only three left. And so I just want to let you know as a consumer, that if you're interested in that TV, there's three left. Now, you don't have to buy that one. You don't have to buy anything. But if you want that TV, there's only three left, yeah, and I think that that that's a good thing, you know? The other thing that Brian said, that I really liked is sort of that difference between running and being a runner, you know, like this whole idea of putting putting yourself in the this is who I am, right? This, which actually, to me, is more of sort of an internal guide of framing myself. Sometimes we talk about with our producer, Caroline Schaefer, she doesn't like to be a tourist. She likes to be a traveler. She's a traveler. She puts herself in the mindset and the framework of a traveler, not just a tourist when she's away from home. And Brian, you know, went from just being, geez, I'm, I gotta, I gotta run. I gotta, you know, I'm a runner, to excuse me, to becoming the person who is a runner, rather than just going out and running. And that has made a big difference for him. Kurt Nelson 1:01:19 Yeah, there's another aspect that he talked about that was really interesting, humility, this this idea of humility and leadership, talked about in book and various different pieces as well, this idea that we need more humility as in leadership, and that that is a it's a biblical thing from his perspective, but it's also an influence. Thing that, you know, when you look at liking, when you look at reciprocity, there's a, there's a naturally built in aspect of humble with that, right? I mean, people like don't necessarily like breakers and create, you know, they like, you know, we tend to like people who have a little bit of humility about them, current political people aside, but that's a different aspect of that. But that, I think there's an element there that is really interesting when you think about this from a leadership perspective. And how do you apply some of these things, that humility aspect? What do you think about that? Tim Houlihan 1:02:24 I couldn't agree more, the world seems to work better when, for me, when I am going through the world and something happens, and I don't immediately blame somebody else, and I just think, Okay, what did I have to do with that? You know, what did I play a role in that? And just at least, at least just thinking about my own existence in the universe, my own existence in this reality, this creation, first and go, What role did I play in what just happened? Versus just say, well, that person's an idiot, Kurt Nelson 1:03:02 obviously, or just making those initial not even negative, but just the humility of like, I understand why this is why this happened. Yeah, this a led to B led to C, and I am certain of that. And there's a little bit of humility that we have. What's that? There's a word for the systemic humility. Tim Houlihan 1:03:27 Thank you. You Kurt Nelson 1:03:29 are. You are my thesaurus and dictionary and encyclopedia all wrapped up into one, Kurt Nelson 1:03:41 so people haven't noticed. Who always says that people are guest names, particularly when they're difficult, you're not paying attention, all right, but all right, sorry, yeah. Brian Ahern, I can say Sonia. Lubrine Minsk, yeah, all right. But back to this conversation on humility, that this idea of of having that Tim Houlihan 1:04:06 epistemic humility, thank you. Kurt Nelson 1:04:09 You knew where I was going with that, this epistemic humility in understanding, right? So that means that we're always searching. That means that we're always being curious, that we have this curiosity, and again, if we can bring some compassion to that curiosity, then I think we're Tim Houlihan 1:04:27 and that's a higher burden to bear, that is, that's a heavier weight. It's harder to do that it just is, and it goes against my lazy brain's desire to just do the least that I can possibly do. Kurt Nelson 1:04:42 It goes against my lazy brain, too. So, you know, I'd love to be able to just assume that that I'm right and never check it out. And just, you know, because I don't need to be human, humility, humble. I. Yeah, see, there's no reason for me to be humble when I'm so perfect at whatever I do. Tim Houlihan 1:05:06 Here, I'm the guy with three and a half hours sleep. Kurt Nelson 1:05:12 All right. Well, I think we should wrap it up before we stumble or I stumble over any more thoughts or words or whatever else it is that I'm stumbling over because I'm just Tim Houlihan 1:05:22 stumbling now. So So grooves. If you can help us out, take our survey. We want to hear what you think about, what it's like being in your groove at work or being in your grind at work. There's a there's a link in the show notes. Please check it out. Kurt Nelson 1:05:37 Please. We are humbly asking you to take Tim Houlihan 1:05:41 that survey. It's a humble request. There you go. Kurt Nelson 1:05:45 And so we hope that you enjoyed this conversation with Brian, and we hope that you took some of the insights and thoughts around that to go out this week and find your group you you. Transcribed by https://otter.ai