Kurt Nelson 0:00 Tim, before we start today, this is a reminder to our listeners that Tim and I provide consulting services to companies around the world. We bring the insights that we've garnered from over 500 episodes of talking with brilliant people and learning about their research and their work along with our own experience, and meld both of those things together in a way that can help your company Tim Houlihan 0:22 through our consulting services. We bring behavioral science insights to your issues and challenges, and it might be in the form of traditional analysis or report writing or leadership counseling. We create and moderate workshops in person and virtually. We can also deliver 60 minute keynote addresses or three hour interactive hands on seminars, right on how to build emotional resilience or develop leadership acumen or thriving through uncertainty or any number of behavioral science meets business topics. Basically, yeah, Kurt Nelson 0:53 so if your company needs some help in this, if you have some people issues or engagement issues or retention issues, send us a note, right? We can talk to you. We can help you find out what is going on, and we would love to hear from you and help make sure that your company is performing as best it can. You. Kurt Nelson 1:25 Tim, welcome to behavioral grooves. I'm Kurt Nelson, and along with my co host Tim Houlihan, we love exploring the hidden psychological forces that drive our decisions, our behaviors, and the way that we lead. Tim Houlihan 1:37 And today, we're thrilled to share a conversation that we had, that we absolutely loved. Our guest today is someone who helps leaders uncover what's really holding them back. Muriel Wilkins is an executive coach, speaker and author of the new book, leadership unblocked how hidden beliefs derail your success and what to Kurt Nelson 1:56 do about it. In her coaching her book and in our conversation, Muriel stressed the ways leaders can identify the unseen blockers that prevent them from reaching their potential, and she called out the common blockers, like I need to be more involved. I can't make a mistake, and I have to prove myself right. And she explains that these blockers often begin as survival mechanisms that that help us right the beliefs that we formed early on to protect ourselves, but sometimes they outlive their usefulness. Tim Houlihan 2:31 Exactly, Kurt and what struck us most in this conversation was how Muriel reframes leadership development as an act of self awareness through hold it curiosity. She makes a brilliant point that curiosity comes before awareness, and her claim is that you can't be self aware if you're not first curious about what's going on inside of you. Kurt Nelson 2:55 Yeah, that hit me hard. It's a fantastic and wonderful way of reframing self awareness and one hopefully that I'm taking to heart. Now, I kind of consider myself a curious person to begin with, but I'm even digging in. I'm leaning into my curiosity. And she also introduces us to this really wonderful concept of expanding your mindset rather than changing it. And I love that framing as well, because growth isn't about throwing away who you are, it's about building more range in how you think and how you lead. Tim Houlihan 3:29 Well said, Wow, we also dug into ideas like inevitable pain versus optional suffering in the workplace. Important distinctions, why stress? Yeah? Why stress doesn't have to be glorified, and how leaders can create conditions for themselves and others to experience challenges with greater ease? Yeah. Kurt Nelson 3:50 So this was not just a fascinating conversation, it was a deeply human, practical, practical and a very enjoyable conversation. Now Muriel's perspective is grounded, compassionate and very real. And I know you, our listeners, will take a lot out of it. I know that I did. So I'm assuming. I'm assuming, Tim, I guess I shouldn't say I know. I'm 99% confident that. Are that? Tim Houlihan 4:17 There you go, pretty it's a high confidence. That's a high confidence level. I'm more like 98% Kurt Nelson 4:21 just just just slightly. So you just don't trust our listeners. Do you Tim Houlihan 4:27 all right? Everybody? We encourage you to sit back and relax with a fine pour of dark roast bustello Coffee, which is Muriel's favorite, and enjoy our conversation with the amazing Muriel Wilkins. Tim Houlihan 4:48 Muriel Wilkins, welcome to behavioral grooves. Muriel Wilkins 4:51 Thank you pleasure to be here. It is our pleasure Tim Houlihan 4:55 to have you here on this lovely Friday afternoon, and we're gonna get started with some. Loosening up kinds of questions, really simple stuff, would you prefer to learn a new language or a new instrument? Muriel Wilkins 5:06 A new instrument, since I don't know, I don't know how to play any instruments, so I'll take a note. Tim Houlihan 5:13 Anything come to mind? Muriel Wilkins 5:14 Yeah, oh my gosh, I would love to know how to play the violin. I love the violin or the cello. I find the cello to be just, I don't know it moves me. Tim Houlihan 5:28 I totally see why. Actually, I mean, I get, I get that kind of connection. Do you love classical music in general? Muriel Wilkins 5:36 I do, um, I do. And it's, it's, it's a rarity, like, I think, and just, you know, particularly, I don't have many friends who enjoy classical music, but I think I inherited it from my dad. Growing up, his Saturday afternoons would be laying on the couch around three o'clock and taking a nap, but he was listening to classical music, and I grew up listening to Vivaldi four seasons. Oh, wow, Tim Houlihan 6:04 my heart just grew three sizes today, just hearing that your dad would expose you to the Four Seasons, I think that's fantastic. Muriel Wilkins 6:10 And then, lo and behold, I have a Gen Z son who plays the saxophone and is quite good, like extremely talented, and everyone thinks that he should be playing jazz. And no, he's classically trained. Who loves classical music? Tim Houlihan 6:27 Nice, okay, that's even better. That's Tim's heart just grew Kurt Nelson 6:31 another three sizes. Muriel Wilkins 6:35 You gotta hear him. Do you have you have Kurt Nelson 6:39 made his day? All right, proud mama. We want to see we want to see speed. Speed Round is a wrong term for whatever Muriel Wilkins 6:46 we do, right? I know, like Kurt Nelson 6:49 all right second of our so called Speed Round questions. Muriel, are you a coffee person or a tea person? Muriel Wilkins 6:57 Most definitely coffee. Tim Houlihan 7:00 Now, how should we go in that you're holding up a container, Muriel Wilkins 7:04 but it's always by my side. Definitely coffee. Love tea. No shade to the tea. But if I have to pick coffees coming with me, particularly bustello Coffee, which is my go to. Okay, Kurt Nelson 7:18 so you do have that was the next that was the next the follow up question, because we asked this question quite a bit. And there are some people who no coffee. Fine, give me whatever it is. I'll drink whatever coffee. Others are very particular, like this roast, and I need it this way, and I do a drip, and I do or, you know, French press, or whatever you very particular about it, or Muriel Wilkins 7:40 I'm particular about the brand. It's my home. I mean, it's, it's what I come back to. There's nothing like a yellow package. You can find it in the grocery store. Love it, and I will take it however it's made, evolved to a very fancy machine that I have a ritual every morning that I make it, but it tastes good no matter what. I mean, I've even had the Keurig version and it tastes good, yeah. And Kurt Nelson 8:06 what's the brand? Boostello. Boostello, okay, we have a sponsorship opportunity right here, so we're going to call me. Tim Houlihan 8:18 Okay, I have to just ask, does coffee snob? Is that a moniker that sounds good to you? Are you at that are you at that level of precision? Muriel Wilkins 8:29 I mean, my I think some would deem my brand of choice not as coffee snobbery, but I would debate them night and day. I do feel like I am a coffee snob. I have definitely eye rolled at cups of coffees that I have been given. Tim Houlihan 8:47 Okay, just get my wife is in that, that category where she, I mean, Muriel Wilkins 8:52 you know, readily accepts the there is really nothing like a French press like, but you have to know how to make it. Kurt Nelson 8:59 Oh yeah. Oh yeah, that's comes from the non coffee drinker, Tim so don't even go there. Okay. Tim Houlihan 9:08 Is it fair to say we're in the third speed round? Okay, yes, we are more or less. Is Kurt Nelson 9:15 it fair to say more tiered to the real topic that we're talking about that, yeah, okay. Tim Houlihan 9:21 Is it fair to say that the limiting beliefs we have about ourselves often emerge from a desire to protect ourselves? Yes. That was a very considered Yes, Muriel Wilkins 9:33 yes, because I think that's layered. Kurt Nelson 9:36 Yeah, we're gonna need to dig into that, because I think that that's it. So I am at the last of our speed round questions, and we have a number of options here, so I'm picking whichever one I get to choose from. Tim Houlihan 9:50 So roll over the dice. All right. Kurt Nelson 9:54 True or false leaders are often blocked, not by a lack of skill. Or knowledge, but by unexamined, often unconscious beliefs about themselves, others or the context, Muriel Wilkins 10:07 bing, bing, bing, true. Unknown Speaker 10:12 We got that from the book. I was hoping that one, there goes my credibility. Tim Houlihan 10:19 It's a good relief. It's a good relief. Okay, we we're here talking with Muriel about her new book, leadership unblocked. Yes, loving it. And I'd like to start with this idea that the book, we're going to come back to some speed round things, but that you focus on seven hidden blockers that limit an individual's leadership potential, which, by the way, all too many of them hit a little too close to home. Just just to say, but why can I just start with these? These are not just blockers. These are limit these are hidden blockers. Why are they hidden blockers? Muriel Wilkins 10:54 Yeah, I mean, they're hidden because we're often not aware of them. You know, they lie within where we can't actually see them. And we're so good at dealing with things that we can see in front of us, and not that great at, like, dealing with stuff that's underneath. And so that's why I call them hidden, because until you can sort of shed some light on them and bring them out into the open, they are hidden to you and you can't really deal with them. Kurt Nelson 11:26 Yeah, so being hidden, obviously, you know, people should read the book, because then they become less than hidden. But, but how do how do we come to find them if we can't see them ourselves, how do we get that mirror shown up to us? Is it? Is it something that from the performance that happens? Is it often because of other people pointing them out? Is it a variety of different pieces? Yeah, from your what do you see? Yeah, Muriel Wilkins 11:49 so Kurt, that's a great question, right? Like, I don't think folks are quite adept at pointing them out, and I think that's the whole purpose behind why I wrote this book, that what I came to understand through my work coaching leaders for the over the past 20 years, as well as work that I had done on myself, is that we often tend to go to the actions or the behaviors, right. We can point out, Hey, you were, you know, the way you acted in that meeting, or the way you tell that story, or the way you manage your team. But what we don't do is sort of go back and say, what's the assumption that's driving that behavior and that action? And so I would not presume that I know what anybody else's assumptions are, nor should anyone. And really, the responsibility is on you to determine what are the beliefs that are driving or the assumptions that I'm bringing into any given situation that that's leading to the behavior that I have. And so the the where you know that you should ask yourself that question is, if you're feeling, quite simply, like something is off, you know, and what that off means is different for anyone, right? It could be I got some feedback that's not aligned with the way I want to be seen, or my team is not operating the way that I want it to operate. Or, you know, for me, I'm at a point where I can feel that I'm off right. I get this tension in my chest, this constriction, or something just doesn't feel right. It's more an energetic feel. It doesn't matter, but there's a signal that could be external or internal, that tells you that something is not aligned with the outcomes that you're desiring to achieve, and therefore what is driving that? And instead of going straight to what am I doing, what I'm suggesting is that you also look at what am i Believing that is leading to what I'm doing that's then leading me to the outcomes that are not desirable? So Tim Houlihan 13:47 it feels like at the very start there needs to be some kind of self awareness or curiosity, a sort of a willingness to pay attention to these signals. Right? Muriel Wilkins 13:58 Absolutely right. And I think really it's curiosity comes before awareness. You know, in order to become aware about something, right? Like, if I want to be aware that, oh, maybe there is another coffee out there that's better than bustello, I've got to be curious about it. In order to be aware, we don't have to be Tim Houlihan 14:19 curious about that. We all know bestello is the best in your world. So Muriel Wilkins 14:24 awareness. I mean, you know, people talk about awareness, but, I mean, it's a great distinction you're making, because we talk so much about self awareness, self awareness, self awareness, where you really can't create self awareness if you're not curious about the self and so one of the things that I, you know, I learned from so many different areas, and it's, it's, it's reflected in the book as well, like I pull from a lot of different places, but one of the, one of my favorite podcasters is Glenn and Doyle on she does, we can do hard things, and one of the things she talks about is, i. I'm curious about why we do what we do. Her and her co host say this. Well, that's a curiosity. And so if you can be curious about that with yourself, then you can go explore. And when you explore, you become aware. You find things out, which is exactly what awareness is. Kurt Nelson 15:18 Fantastic, beautifully said. So Tim asked you a speed round question that you kind of hesitated on, and it was that, is it fair to say that limiting beliefs we have about ourself often emerge from a desire to protect ourselves, and you use kind of hemmed and hawed there and then said, it's nuanced. So can you talk a little bit about the nuance there, Muriel Wilkins 15:40 yeah, and so, so I answered yes, but it was, it was a cautious Yes, and it was a cautious Yes, because I actually think what limiting beliefs were. So let's take off the limiting part, okay, okay, and talk about how those beliefs came to be in the first place. Those beliefs didn't come out of nowhere. Those beliefs originated because you understood the assignment that if I did these things, which form these beliefs, I would survive in this world. And survival means different things, right? When you are younger. Survival is my parents are happy with me. I get to get candy, I eat, I feel but at the it goes down to, you know, the hierarchy of needs, I feel connected and like I belong, I feel safe and I feel valued and worthy. And so we come up with these beliefs because they are our way of surviving in whatever context we were in with getting those survival what we deem a survival needs met. So fast forward to the they protect us. Well, of course, right? They become the when they become limiting, which means that those beliefs no longer work for you in the context that you're in, you're applying the same ones that were you were using when you were younger, or when you had that first job, or whatever it might be, but now you're the CEO, and why are you using the same script the in a sense, they are protecting you From the thing you were looking to not have happened back then, right? So they do serve a protective mechanism, but at their core, they are learned in order to survive again however you wanted to find survive in the context that you were in at some point in your life. Tim Houlihan 17:41 Yeah, thank you. That's beautifully said. Kurt Nelson 17:48 Hey, grooves, we want to take a moment away from our conversation to thank you for listening to behavioral grooves. If you enjoy the conversations we're having and want to help us keep the groove going, here are a few simple ways that you can support Tim Houlihan 18:01 the show. First off, subscribing to our sub stack is a great way to stay connected with us between episodes. The weekly newsletter provides you with cool insights that are beyond the episodes, and they get delivered straight to your inbox. Kurt Nelson 18:13 And if you haven't already leaving a review or a rating of the podcast on a platform like Apple or Spotify or YouTube, helps other curious minds discover us, and there's two great things about that. One, it gives us a boost. And two, it costs nothing Tim Houlihan 18:30 and it only takes a second, but it makes a huge difference for us. Plus, we love hearing from you, so don't be shy. Leave us a review or give us a quick thumbs up. Kurt Nelson 18:39 We're coming up on 500 episodes, and we're doing this because we love the conversations we have with our guests. Yeah, Tim Houlihan 18:46 we also want to do it because we love bringing you insightful behavior, changing content every week, and we hope that some of those insights will help you find your groove. Something that we really like about the book is the way that you organize it. You've got very explicit headers for the hidden blockers. Like, yes, I need to be involved. I need it done now, etc. I don't want to go through all of these. But what the maybe even better than just being so explicit and being very direct in those you also get to the costs of these and these downsides in a very explicit way. And I was as I was reading, and I was just kind of thinking, to some degree, are you concerned that readers might not be aware, or get back to this curiosity, like we're talking about curiosity prior, preceding self awareness. You're concerned that they might not even have enough curiosity? To understand the potential costs of these things. Muriel Wilkins 19:46 I think that the I think the reason why I was so explicit with them is for a couple of reasons. One is, well, first of all, I'm a simple person, right? Like, if you can tell me, Oh, here it is. I'm like, oh, like, you've just made it, you know, so much. Yeah, more simple for me. I mean, that's why I read a lot, like, I'll read, you know? I I'll share an example, right? Like, I meditated for years before I read something, and I was like, oh, that's what it's meant to do. So, and you can thank Michael singer for that, right? So, so it's the same premise. So it's not the fact that I don't believe people can figure it out on their own, but why not kind of fast track and accelerate that process and simplify it a little bit? That's number one. Number two is even though I name the seven limiting beliefs or hidden blockers that I have seen most often in my in the leaders that I have worked with over the years. What it does is actually just create a framework to say that there are others as well. Just because there are these seven doesn't mean that you have these seven, although they are very common and you're not alone, but there very well might be others, and so part of it is also offering a process through which folks can be curious. Because I don't think we are taught to be curious about ourselves. We're not taught that. We're taught to learn about other things outside of us. But very rarely are we taught, unless you grew up in a pretty special household. Are we taught to really look internally and figure out what's going on and how that might be contributing to the way you're treating your staff or the way you're dealing with anyone? Quite frankly, yeah, I think that. Oh, Tim Houlihan 21:35 go ahead, Tim. I'm wondering why you think that is. I think it's a brilliant observation, by the way, Muriel Wilkins 21:41 oh, I mean, I think I, you know, this is not scientifically, you guys are the scientist like, I'm not the scientific proof. But anecdotally, my hypothesis is it's hard to teach somebody to do something that you haven't done yourself, right? And so it, this is, this is, it's hereditary. I mean, not genetically hereditary, but if you didn't grow up or go to schooling, or were in a workplace context where that was valued, where you were, a, provided the space. B, appreciated for it. C, congratulated for doing that, then what motivation is there to do it? You know, I remember growing up, and by the way, you know, my mom, may she rest in peace, is one of my just, my everything. And I could see my mom had different sides to her. But I remember as a child, I just was somebody who would just sit there and be, like, really pensive, and look up at the sky and have all these crazy questions, you know, Is it us that moving, or is it the clouds that are moving? Which one is it? There was this innate curiosity, and I would think a lot. And my mom, I remember my mom saying to me, stop thinking so hard, it's only going to lead to trouble that stayed. So that message, in and of itself, was like, Stop, like, stop being reflective. Go, do, right? You think about, I don't remember the exact same, but there's something, forgive me, it's like idle minds. What like fill in the blank? Something about idle minds waste time or something like that. Tim Houlihan 23:23 Yeah, it's the My recollection is idle minds are the devil's playground. I mean, come on, Muriel Wilkins 23:32 come on. So why is that? I you know? I mean, we could get into a whole conversation of this, like, I don't know. Why is that a threat for us to really be pensive about why we do what we do, why we think what we think, unpack the learned beliefs that we have, unpack the things that we're taught, and come up with our own reframing. Why is that a threat? I don't know. I mean, we could explore that in so many different ways. Tim Houlihan 24:02 That will be an episode four of our four hour conversation with Ariel Wilkins, Kurt Nelson 24:09 mira, you bring up a really good point. It's, you know, there's an aspect of it. It's a learned response, right? We get rewarded whether that's whatever. And then I thought the other really interesting piece of just that conversation you just shared is, oftentimes our parents, the teachers, the people who are in you know, we hold up on a pedestal as a child. Is, when we're children, we don't realize the impact that certain words and statements, they're set often just in an off we don't think about them, right? And so the words that your mother said, like thinking too much is good, you know? And yet that stuck with you for all these years, right? And Muriel Wilkins 24:46 it stuck with me because she was an authority figure. She was somebody that I wanted love from, and I wanted to love. I'm sure her intent was, I mean, if she were to, I'm sure she's hearing me somewhere, right? Yeah, I'm sure she's like, Oh my God. Like, that's not what I meant. I. Time, exactly. And, yeah, right. So I think part of it is, it's not what we're taught. I think the other part of it is, you know, I think people are uncomfortable with what they might find out as adults, like, I think as children, we're not so concerned. But as adults, it becomes uncomfortable. It's the whole like, what if I open up the can of worms and I can't close it back up, and so I'd rather not right? What if the what if the belief is something that I can't change. And I think that's the good news story. I didn't make this up. You look at all the research that's been done over the past couple of decades around the fact that, I mean to me, this is such. I remember reading positive psychology when I the the original book, right? Like, when I was probably in my late 20s, and being like, what, you know, I can change the way I think, like, that's fascinating. Now, it took me 30 years to actually do it, but there was awareness, but that's the good news story, right? Like, the good news story is no no. Like, even if you go explore inside and you explore those beliefs, there's the magic, like you actually can do something about it. Might not be easy, but that's really where the power lies, because you then have choice around what to believe. That then drives choice in how you behave and how you act, rather than being this one note leader or one note manager? Kurt Nelson 26:23 Yeah, let's get back to that leader part and different pieces. And one thing that I thought was really, I think both Tim and I liked about the book you talked you created this powerful distinction between inevitable pain and optional suffering and corporate cultures today, they seem to glorify, you know, stress, or that, that kind of the pain as part of a sign of commitment from from workers. So what can leaders do to get past that and kind of say, You know what? This is an optional piece, and how do we go there? And actually, maybe you want to just define inevitable pain and optional suffering Muriel Wilkins 27:04 before we Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I won't take credit for it, because I certainly didn't create it. Buddha did. Buddha and his friends came up with the fact that, you know, pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional, you know. And so what does that mean? You know, the pain is what we experience inevitably in life, right? We experience things that cause us pain, physical pain, emotional pain, mental pain, that is the nature of life, okay, but how you experience that situation of pain? Right? The thing that caused the pain, how you experience that is the is, then what determines whether you are suffering or not, right? And what is the opposite of suffering, it's experiencing things with ease. And so my whole purpose, quite frankly, is to have leaders and and starting with leaders, because if they're able to do this, and everybody else will be able to as well, is to experience the challenges that they face day in day out, the pains that they face, whether it's a reorg the economy sucks. You know, my people aren't performing those things aren't going to go away. Okay? They're going to keep on happening. But can you experience it with a little more ease, rather than this, like constricting and suffering that you do and, oh, by the way, my hypothesis is if leaders could experience those things with more ease, oh man, everybody else would have a little more ease as well. And wouldn't the workplace be just a little tad bit better. Kurt Nelson 28:42 Yeah, I've experienced some of those leaders who don't live with that ease, and I would agree with I've Muriel Wilkins 28:48 experienced it. I will self confess I have been I am, at times, still are. I still is. Yeah, but it's this notion of how you experience the challenges do not go away. And I think that's what to me, is just, you know, I think it's this turning point to realize I have so many people who come coaching. They're like, I want all these things to go away. I don't want my team to be difficult anymore. I don't want the boss to be, you know, the way they are. I don't want and I'm like, yeah, let me know where that fantasy world is and I will join you. The challenges do not go away, but how you experience those challenges is where you actually have agency and choice. And that's what I'm trying to get people to build the capacity to have, is that you can choose how to experience anything, right? And so why not if you're taking the big, challenging job, can you? Can you experience it in a bit of different way? And again, you know, my thinking is that your mindset has a lot to do with whether you experience something as ease versus suffering. Tim Houlihan 29:55 Okay, so let's say I'm brand new to the book and I'm. Looking at the hidden blockers, and I see the first one is, I need to be involved. And I and I'm like, I do. I actually need to be involved. Like, I can't just let I know that my team is a bunch of talented people, but unless I'm involved, they're not going to be able to do it right. How do you coach those people? How do you get them past the My Muriel Wilkins 30:22 first question to you, Tim would be and how's that working out for you? What if? Tim Houlihan 30:29 What if I say, You know what, I'm stressed at work. I work hard, but I get, I get my shit done, everything that I that I say I'm going to get done because, because I'm involved. What if I have this rationalization scheme in my head that is just perpetual, Muriel Wilkins 30:42 which we all do, and literally, I, you know, I tell my clients all the time I sleep very well at night. Like this is not about me trying to convince you to do anything any differently. But if what you're telling me is you still want to get stuff done and you want to be less stressed, something needs to change, because the math is not mathing, right? The belief of I need to be involved is leading you to get stuff done and be super stressed, or whatever the other things or you're, quite frankly, it's not even about you being super stressed. It's usually and your employee engagement scores are in the tank, or you got that negative feedback, or you didn't get promoted because people don't think you're a good think you're a good people manager, or because people are leaving your team right, like there's some external factor that's causing you pain in terms of you being able to get stuff done, or even, even though I'm getting stuff done, I'm finding them at a place where I'm not getting everything done anymore. Oh, maybe it's because you feel like you need to be involved and you're not leveraging right, like you cannot be. It's a fee. It's a sheer physical capacity issue. So part of it is me asking you, then, well, what is it that you want? How do you want to feel? How do you want to feel three months from now, six months from now, how do you want your team to experience you? What do you want to be focused on? What's the impact you want to make as a leader? Okay, so then they spell it out, whatever that, and it doesn't have to be the same for everyone, right? That's why this is very individualized. But if you can articulate what are the desired outcomes that you want, then we can peel back the onion and say, Okay, well, how is the I need to be involved serving those outcomes. And if they are great, we are done. We don't need to do anything any differently. But if what you're saying is they're not right, I feel stressed my sport. Okay, so then maybe we ought to do something and change the operating script that's leading to the actions, the behaviors, or the outcomes that you're having right now. Kurt Nelson 32:47 Yeah, so Muriel, it kind of what I'm hearing you say. Here goes back to two things we've already kind of talked about. One is, is awareness that that curiosity and awareness of being able to do that, and then the other part is mindset, like you talked about mindset before. So it's, it's all right, I need to, all right. So what is it that I want to have as an outcome? Is this, this, you know, need to be involved. Or what have any of the other, you know, seven blockers that I have, or any other blockers, as you said, those might not be the only limiting beliefs that we have is if it's getting in the way, or maybe it's not. Is that curiosity? So if I do realize that it is, how do you go about changing that mindset? Because most of those, and I think you even talk about this, right? They come from a deep, rooted place for most people. So it's not as easy as just saying, Oh, well, now tomorrow, I'm not going to be an involved Muriel Wilkins 33:44 person. This is not like, positive thing. This is not like, oh my god, like, Oh no, the sky is, you know, green. Kurt Nelson 33:51 No, it's still blue. How many times you tell yourself, no Muriel Wilkins 33:57 blue, no matter. It's not that, right? It's not like, fake it till you make it right. So, so first of all, I'm I'm a little nuanced about language, because I think it's just the way I'm wired. Like I really think about words and even this nuance of, like, how do you change my mindset? I don't necessarily think this is about changing mindset. I think what it's about is about expanding your mindset. It's not about letting go of the belief or destroying it, or killing it or getting rid of it. It's simply putting it to the side and saying, I don't need you right now. And so the question becomes, what are my other choices in beliefs, right? You know, the metaphor that I think, I think it's a metaphor analogy, I don't, I get those two mixed up all the time, is like, if you're building Tim Houlihan 34:51 a podcast, whatever, whatever you say it is, it's gonna be, it. Muriel Wilkins 34:55 It's like, if you're building a spreadsheet, right? Like a budget spreadsheet, well, you have a some. Assumptions that go in, right? Well, I mean, assumptions are belief there. So when you're building your budget for next year, you're, you're basing it on what you believe is going to happen next year. But do we really know? No, right? We don't really. We make informed decisions around that. But you could put, you have, you have a myriad of choices of the assumptions that you put into that budget to then come out with whatever outcome you want, right in terms of your business or your family life or whatnot. It's the same thing. So I think about it, about expanding your mindset so that you can now say, oh my gosh, I have at my disposal not just this. I need to be involved or I can't make a mistake. I'm not a OneNote. I can choose a range of different beliefs. All that are a lot more deciding which one to pick up based on what I want to have happen in the future, right? What do I want to have happen again for me, for others, for the context, etc. And what, you know, what really strikes me about this Tim and Kurt is like, this is what agency is all about. You know, we we hear so much, especially I have Gen Z kids, so it's all about having agency, right? And, you know, agency is choice, but the choice is not just in the action. If you want to have choice in action, you've got to look back and say, Well, what will allow me to pick up the different instrument, right? Or pick up the different tool or implement the different strategy? I've got to have some range and assumptions that allows me to do that. Tim Houlihan 36:36 This that was so beautifully articulated. Muriel, really. Thank you so much for that. I love that. It reminds me of earlier you were kind of talking about this evolution of context, right? That what we might have needed when we were 20 in one role might not be the same set of skills, the same set of even so am I? Is it fair to say that change up your beliefs and what you what you need in the new role that you're in? Muriel Wilkins 37:08 Yeah, yeah, expand, right? If I think about my first job out of college, I, you know, I'm going to date myself here, but like, I was in charge of the little direct mailing stuffer that went into the bill. Tim Houlihan 37:23 But you graduated from college in 2022, Muriel Wilkins 37:30 before, I mean, gosh, right, my computer had dos on. Is that even what it was called? But I, you know, that's, that's the that was my sole responsibility every month, we needed to make sure that the stuffer had the right little, you know, commercial on it, that all these people who would get their bills would be able to pull out. So did the belief that I needed to be involved, and I can't make a mistake, which is one of the other hidden blockers, was it paramount, absolutely right? I would have gotten canned if this one little stuffer was wrong, you know, I had to get it right, and so did I need to use that as my mantra and quadruple, quintuple check things be involved at that granular level? Yes, but if I fast forward, you know, 20 years later, 10 years later, whatnot, when I started to scale, and I started to manage people, and started to manage different businesses and divisions, did it serve me to have that same mindset? No, it served me in certain capacities. If I was getting ready to present to the board or present to the this my CEO at the time, obviously, I wanted to be involved, but did I still need to be involved in what was written on the on the little you know, what we were planning for the holiday party? No, I did not, not at the same level. So there's range. So I often say, as you evolve as a leader and, quite frankly, as a person, the goal is to not necessarily change. The goal is to have more range. It's to have more range, right? Change is too black or white doesn't work. It's have range so that you can pick which ones are going to work best. Kurt Nelson 39:23 I love the concept of range because I think it, as you said, it's expanding, not changing, right? And this is this ability. It's actually saying, Hey, you now have, as you talked about, agency. You have more agency because you have a different choice set that you can choose from, and different different components within there. If I was a brand new leader coming into the workplace, what is the one insight that you would say, what? What's the what? What one piece of advice, based upon kind of the work that you've done here, would you give. Of that new leader? Muriel Wilkins 40:01 Yeah, I think the first thing that I would do, and this is something that I typically do, like I coach a lot of leaders who are onboarding into new roles, whether they're new leaders or new to the organization or new context, so one of the very first things that they need to do is define what success means in that role. Okay? And there, and I have them define it in a couple of different ways. One is, what does the what does success mean for them, irrelevant of the role, irrelevant of the organization, what does success mean for them? Then I have them define what the success mean for them in the context of the role that they're now in. So like, for example, I'm coaching somebody now who went from being one of the business CFOs in their organization to now being the the CFO, right? Like the CFO, CFO, still same acronym, but completely different role, right? So define what success means in that role. And then the third is, let's define what success in that role means in this particular context, organizational context that you're in. Meaning, how's the company doing? What's happening with the industry, right like in this example that I have with my CFO, well, guess what? Right now the context is the stock isn't doing too great. Very different context to operate in than if the stock was doing really, really well. And so what does success look like in this particular role in this context, and then we look at all three, and we this is where I pray to God that there is an intersection in those definitions of success, because if there is too much dissonance, particularly between how the Individual is defining success for themselves and the role and or the context that can become quite painful over time. And so we want to make sure that there's some intersection, and we also want to define way, and that's where we start with them, defining where, you know, they might have to lean in more, where we might have to close some gaps, but not just skill gaps, really, it's again, going back to now it becomes okay. How do I have to think? What are the assumptions that I need to make to make this all work? So I have my my I definitely recommend that leaders define it for themselves, and then I also ask them to go validate it. You should be talking to other people. How are they defining it? Because they have a lot of expectations about the role and about the context and about you, and so we, you know, putting all of that together is the starting place that then can help inform Okay, well, what do I want to achieve, and all the things that we talked about, and then being able to peel back the Kurt Nelson 43:01 onion. I love the facet of bringing in different perspectives on it. I hear we've talked to a lot of people, we've read a lot of books, and you know that it's that you know, define success well, you typically define success in just one kind of area. And I love thinking at it, or looking at successes those different areas myself, within the context of this role, within the context of the larger organization, and then even going out and getting this that other people's perspective on it, because I think that just rounds everything out. I think Muriel Wilkins 43:33 it's absolutely right. I mean, there was somebody I worked with once where, like, when, if you asked him, How does he define success for him, he's like, meeting the numbers. Yeah, right. But you look at the organizational culture that he had joined, and they placed a high value, not just on meeting results with the people side of things too. And that wasn't, he didn't define success in that way. It was like, as long as we're meeting the numbers, that's all that matters, right? And so there was this redefinition of what it means to be a leader in this context, and then he had to opt in or opt out. You know? It was because he wasn't aligned with it, and that's fine. Again. I'm a very no judgment person. I'm like, just this, is it? The sky is blue, right? Like to be effective as a leader here, success is defined as you index highly on results and index highly on the people side. And that's the formula, right? That's what we want the math to add up to. If you're saying, Nope, the math only needs to add up to the numbers. There's a dissonance there. So you choose, right? Which one do you want to do? I'm going to tell you. The one you're choosing is fine, but it's either going to create a lot of pain for you, or it's going to create a lot of pain for other people. Something's going to break, or the organization is going to break. We can wait for that, or we can try to figure it out now, but ultimately, it's your choice that's where that that you know that that step even of accepting that this is. What it is is huge before you can even make a choice of what you want to do. Tim Houlihan 45:05 Yeah, that's very cool. We're very well said. Muriel, we talked to a lot of our guests about people finding their groove, right? We're interested in helping people find their groove. How do you find your groove? Oh, my stay in your groove. Muriel Wilkins 45:23 It takes a lot. Tim Houlihan 45:27 Does it take a haircut in the next 20 minutes? Muriel Wilkins 45:33 You know, I am not joking. I do a lot to like stay. I'm very aware that I, you know, I have to immerse myself in certain situations or lay out the conditions so that I feel like I'm getting what I need. And it still goes back to those fundamental human needs, right? Am I in conditions where I feel worthy, where I feel like I am being cared for, where I'm feeling supported, where I am feeling valued and I'm feeling safe. Now the difference is a lot of that used to come from the outside, and I think now I've built practices so that I've built the capacity to fill feel those things for myself, regardless of what's going on on the outside. And so what are those practices? I have a not completely consistent, but almost consistent meditation practice that is almost daily, Kurt Nelson 46:30 and you now know what you're supposed to do. In that sense, reading. Muriel Wilkins 46:33 It's a very conscious decision I'm making. It's not like I just forget it. Literally, I'm not meditating today. Oh, well, you know, and so that. But that is even an opportunity, because that gives me an opportunity to practice self compassion and grace, to say it's okay, you know, you're not going to go to hell because you didn't meditate, right? So meditation is a big one. Physical movement is a big one because, and so I do some form of physical movement every day, beyond walking from one place to my office, and that is just to make sure that there's alignment between my my body and the rest of me, versus it being separated. And then I think the third, which has been something probably rather new for me, is practicing community. I've always been in community, but I don't think I've ever practiced community, and the practice of community for me is actually being very intentional in who I am around. What is the energy that we're creating when we are with each other? What is the energy that I bring in to those rooms, to those conversations, to those situations, and actually using or recognizing that any form of community is also a chance for me to increase my self awareness, increase my self curiosity, and practice all the things that I you Know, I hope that others will as well. And so all those are the three things, primarily for me, that that kind of keep me in my groove for now, Kurt Nelson 48:10 that's fantastic. So, Tim Houlihan 48:13 yeah, I've kind of, we don't we're terrible. Kurt Nelson 48:20 No, it's a good question. I mean, I think this is something we've been exploring. We've been talking about this going on eight years, right as we've been doing the podcast, and probably even before that, we just labeled it differently. And I think you laid out a couple different ones. I think there's an introspection component of it, of being aware of of what you need to do from a mental state, whether that you know, for you, in a meditation, for Tim, it's probably listening to music. It's, you know, there's other facets of how that works. I'm not talking to you, Tim, you can correct me if I misspoke there. But, you know, I think there's, there's that there is the movement part, which is, and I know from for myself, it's not just movement. It's trying to get outside and trying to get out into nature, even if it's the backyard, to a certain degree of this, you know, I think there is the social harmony kind of your community. I loved how you stated that it's purposeful community and all of that. I think that is something that is very true. But just being, you know, one of the things that we found from just talking with all the wonderful, intelligent researchers here is, you know, social has become much more important, at least for me, because I realized, from what the research says. I mean, should have realized this before, but how important that is overall to not just our immediate well being, but, you know, a whole number of other factors in, like longevity, health and, you know, living all those things. Yeah, and then I. Think there's also just, you know, trying to find some, some purpose, some some meaning, and being able to say that, yeah, I was able to do, you know, something today. It doesn't have to be, I don't have to cure cancer, but, all right, I did, you know, what did my little P, the, you know, big P versus little P, kind of components, and did I make the world a better place for somebody or something today by something I did. And, yeah, I can look back on the day, and I go, Yep, all right, that's a good group day. And, you Muriel Wilkins 50:29 know, there the meaning piece I remember, I, you know, I definitely, I think for a long time, was like, it's got to be big, right? Like it doesn't have meaning unless, and I remember one of the folks who actually quoted the book, Dr chipalli Saberi took a class with her or something, and she was saying, like, you know, one of the keys is recognizing that there's meaning in everything you know. And and so the practice was, the challenge, the assignment was, pick something that you absolutely hate doing and find meaning in it. And I was like, Oh, my God, I hate doing bills and and so it was like, okay, that. So then it was lay out the conditions as though, like, it's something you love doing, you know? So I remember, I like lit can't I still do this, by the way, like I lit candles and I put music on and I had a glass of wine, and then you had to do a gratitude practice about the thing you hated doing. And so it was like, oh, electric. $700 electric bill. Thank you for keeping our house warm. So oh, I picked up, I was like, Oh, thank you for insurance, Bill for helping keeping me healthy. Thank you. But it worked like you recognized that there was meaning and everything, and then if you really couldn't find it, then you had to be curious, right? Was it something in me that I was resisting, or did you did it actually have a place, right? Did it actually have a place? So, sorry, I didn't mean to go on a tangent on that, but it just brought it up for me. Yeah, perfect. Tim Houlihan 52:13 Beautifully said. Beautifully said, can I just add one thing is that, given our conversation about the evolution of context, like, what keeps you in your groove is something that I think it was implied in your answer. It's changed, right? Community is more important today than it was 10 years ago. Muriel Wilkins 52:31 Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, if you had talked to me 20 years ago, it was very much. I mean, I still am achievement driven. Don't, don't. Like, let's not get it twisted, right? Like, yeah, I want things to, you know? I want my stuff to do well, you know, whatever. But I'm not as attached to it in terms of my identity to it, you know. So I think the what has changed is more what I identify with, and maybe it's age, I don't know. I think it is age, but I also think it's, you know, age and experience, I should say. But I also think it's the work that we've been talking about, the expansion of mindset. What I find is that the more you expand your mindset, the more the and I know you had somebody on here who talked about attachments in terms of or his book, detach, right? The more you expand your mindset, the the less you actually can attach to because it's just not one thing, right? Like, it's like, if you're in the backyard as a kid, and there's a bunch of trees that you can go hang from, rather than just holding on to that one tree, well, that loosens the grip quite a bit. And you know, ultimately, for me, it's boy, what I love. You know, I believe this is what they actually mean by Heaven on Earth is you don't have attachment, right? In the mental state, people tend to think it's in the physical state. No, no, that's going to happen. Don't you worry, we're all headed there when we're not attached to anything physical. Yeah, but the mind, like the the lack of attachment to how things define you, or how they need to be, gets loosened. I am definitely not there. I think it's a very rare spot to get to. I think, like, two to 3% of the people get there. I think Buddha got there, Jesus got there, right? Like Gandhi probably got there. But that you know that to me, is the change in context that then leads to definitely different things, keeping in the groove. Yeah, I've never talked about Jesus before on a podcast. Tim Houlihan 54:31 Well, it just happened, and you made me do it. Muriel, thank you so much for being a guest on behavioral Muriel Wilkins 54:40 grooves today. Of course. Thank you so much. It was really, really great. Kurt Nelson 54:50 Welcome to our grooving session where Tim and I share ideas on what we learned from our discussion with Muriel. Have a free flowing conversation and groove on whatever else comes into. You are expanding brains. Tim Houlihan 55:03 I like expanding I like the idea of expanding our brains. I Kurt Nelson 55:07 do too. I mean, as opposed to this idea that change means that we need to throw out what we were doing, or who we are, or the way we think the mindset that we have that instead of this, like, ooh, cut this piece out of us and move on and put this new piece in its place. It's no we just get a bigger, bigger pie, right, and we can expand that part is still there. Maybe it gets reduced. Maybe it doesn't have the same impact or influence that it used to have, but we're just expanding. Tim Houlihan 55:50 We had a cool conversation with Roy Baumeister, the great, you know, psychologist from, you know, major, major contributions in Roy's work, on a lot of domains in psychology, but I remember him saying that he's kind of always looking for what's the next thing that's going to contradict something that he already believes. Oh my gosh, yeah, like that. I'm paraphrasing, but this idea that he has this curiosity that is strong enough to go I'm I'm sure about what I feel right now, but I'm willing to be unsure if I'm just posed the right information. Just show me, Kurt Nelson 56:30 you know, again, goes back to that curiosity part, that curiosity is key. And I think Muriel talks about how that self awareness starts with that curiosity, and that curiosity isn't always about things that are out there in the in the ethereal world. They're oftentimes about what's going on inside of us, Tim Houlihan 56:53 right? And it it kind of gets to, I think one of the themes that really struck me about our conversation with Muriel is how attachment can be a trap. And right, if you're a leader and you feel like, well, I did all these things to get to where I'm at, so I should just keep doing them, that's a trap. Because what, what is coming next in your leadership career, in your in your experience in the world, is almost necessarily going to be different from what it was, and so you're going to have to make some adaptations to really, to really leverage what you know and experience, but for the context of what's happening in your world ahead of you. Kurt Nelson 57:36 And I think there's a really big piece of this too, that leaders and you and I both have this experience, right? We've met leaders who have risen up through the ranks because they were very good at certain things, yeah, and then they finally reach a level where those things that they were really good at no longer are the skills that they need in order to continue to move ahead the Peter Principle. And they get, they get plateaued right. And there is an aspect of that, that as we, as I think about this, it's that self curiosity, that maybe they're missing, maybe they're not reflecting on themselves enough and going, I'm really good at doing this. I see this all the time and again, that we've used this almost as much as you're, you know, getting cut off in traffic, example. But I've done a number of I've done a lot of work with incentives. Both of us have done a lot of work with incentives. And the number of sales leaders that we do, that we're talking about sales incentives that we're working with, and how they focus in on Well, this is what motivated me. And I was a top salesperson, this is what we need to do, because it worked for me. This is the way that I am motivated. And that singular focus that they have on that, I think, is just it. It doesn't allow the expansiveness of the entirety of their field force that they're doing. All the employees that that work for them are not like them, and maybe there's a really small few that are, but that's a small few, and you have to encompass the rest of them, but it also doesn't take into context, changing times, changing environments, changing workplace, you know, ways of doing business, a variety of other things that it falls back to, well, 25 years ago, when I was in your position, this is what I did, and this has worked for me. Tim Houlihan 59:58 And. My favorite example of that, and isn't so much about what I did when I was younger, but the VP of Sales for all of North America had some 450 sales people reporting up to him. And this is a guy in his mid 50s who has just gotten his motorcycle license, and he decides midway through the incentive campaign that he wants to put a Harley Davidson motorcycle as the top prize. Like everybody who has the one person who has the greatest increase is going to get the Harley Davidson. And I just said, how many first of all motorcycle licenses in the US are about 15% of the population, so it's relatively small. How many of your sales reps are motorcycle riders? Kurt Nelson 1:00:49 Yeah, even have a motorcycle license that could even ride the motorcycle? Right? Tim Houlihan 1:00:54 He said, I don't know, but this is a fantastic prize, and then he wants to make sure that we announce it on on a live call, so that at the end, he announces that it was Colleen so and so from Dallas, who was the top seller. By the way, 40% of his sales force were female, and women have fewer motorcycle licenses than men, even. And he announces it. And she's just like, Oh, thank you. That's just so exciting. Her husband had been killed in a motorcycle accident, like, several years before it, and, oh, man, like without context, he really missed an opportunity to just be not just politically correct or sensitive to his people, but actually have something that was motivating for everybody. He really missed the motivational force in this particular and then, you know, it was up to me to actually get on the phone with her. And I was, you know, how would you like? I didn't know this about about this woman, but she's a soccer mom in Dallas who is a single mom who's just trying to figure out how to get by. And she's like, I can't take this as a gift, as a reward. I was like, oh, okay, that's no problem. I didn't ask why, but she volunteered. Oh yeah, my husband was killed in a motorcycle accident just a few years ago. It's Kurt Nelson 1:02:21 like, oh, so maybe there that's it's a one off. And granted, it's a horrible story, but it goes to the point of saying even the larger element here is this idea of we so internalize what we think others are going to do and look at it only through the lens of our own self, as opposed to expanding that as miracle would say, having a broader mindset and thinking about things at a more global metacognition perspective and as a leader, that's your role. As you get higher into the organization, you have to start stepping away from your own kind of specifics. And we get sold this book all the time of Steve Jobs. And you know, those, those, you know, very visionary leaders. And yes, there is a there's a point to be that if you're an entrepreneurial person who is leading the charge on something, but even there, I would argue you need to expand your mindset and go beyond just that singular focus that you bring. Tim Houlihan 1:03:37 Yeah, absolutely. Okay. What? What other points do you? Do you want to make here? Kurt Nelson 1:03:44 Kurt, so we, we've just covered a bunch. Attachment is a trap. Context matters, right? Yeah. So what the the piece that I thought was really fascinating was this idea that that by expanding our mindset, we are decreasing our attachment. That's very Buddhist concept to me. It is, I think it is, Tim Houlihan 1:04:12 and I think it's a good thing to to think about, if we're just going to play that out. Maybe a good way to get into your own introspection is through meditation, is through a little bit of self reflection time and to pull back to try to align your mind and your body so that you're a little bit more sensitive. And we've talked about curiosity, holy cow, how many times have we talked about curiosity and the importance of continuing to ask questions of yourself? Kurt Nelson 1:04:40 Yeah, not just of the situation, but how am I showing up? You know, what are my beliefs about this? How confident am I in this? Yeah, all of those types of questions that go, why do I believe this? What is the basis of. My perceptions around here, and being able to ask those questions, I think, is so important. Tim Houlihan 1:05:06 Those aren't self doubting questions. It's not coming at the at those questions as I must be wrong. You don't have to have that. I don't think that that's what we're advocating for. But it is having the curiosity to say, okay, how am I approaching it today? How am I showing up? Why am I showing up this way? Yeah, that that's, that's not a bad way to go. Kurt Nelson 1:05:31 So let me just wrap with this quote from mural, Tim Houlihan 1:05:36 right? Oh, you get philosophical on us here. Kurt Nelson 1:05:39 No, it's like, it's a quote from Muriel. So it's often it's just this brilliant stuff, right? Yeah, so the tighter we grip, the less we can hold, the more trees we can reach, the less desperate we are for any single branch. This is the expansion paradox, and it might just be the key to both achievement and to peace. And I love that. I think it's just a fantastic piece. The tighter we grip, the less we can hold, the more trees that we can reach, the less desperate we are for any single branch. I mean, it's a wonderful way of looking at how we can approach this. So Tim Houlihan 1:06:19 it really is I I'm so glad that we got to meet Muriel. Me too. That's a short story. That's why we love doing this, you know, so isn't that the truth and all the money that we make off of it? Kurt Nelson 1:06:33 Oh, silly. Yeah, no. But with that, with that reminder, people, Tim and I do to consulting with companies, that's right, that's right. Tim Houlihan 1:06:43 And we do, and we love it, like we actually love applying behavioral science to the kind of engagement or sales or or organizational structure or change leadership, you Kurt Nelson 1:06:55 know, development or looking at this from bringing a behavioral science lens into your organization, so that you're understanding these drivers of behavior and going well, of course, you know, it's not the it's it's like you should have told a story Tim, where you actually convinced the VP not to do The motorcycle. But, you know, but at least you can, you know, we have those, have those experiences, and can really highlight that for your leaders and various different people so and Tim Houlihan 1:07:31 we're doing it not only because of the practice of applying behavioral science, but we're sitting on 500 episodes of conversations with really bright people like Muriel Wilkins, that that we've collated and collected and curated in such a way that we feel like we've got something valuable to offer you and your organization. Kurt Nelson 1:07:55 Yeah, yeah. And then there you send us a note. We can do workshops, we can do in depth consulting we can do there. And if you don't want to send us a note because it doesn't fit for your organization at this time, you can definitely just maybe leave us a rating or a lovely review about the show, because maybe then we can get many, many more listeners and big sponsors for the show. Tim Houlihan 1:08:23 So make sure you take a little bit of this mind expansion idea and use it this week as you go out and find your groove. You Transcribed by https://otter.ai