Kurt Nelson 0:07 Welcome to behavioral grooves. I'm Kurt Nelson Tim Houlihan 0:10 and I'm Tim Houlihan. Today we are thrilled to speak with Dr Wolfgang Linden, a psychologist and professor who spent over 40 years teaching and researching human behavior his new book, The illusion of control, a practical guide to avoid futile struggles, tackles one of the most pervasive challenges we face, our tendency to exhaust ourselves trying to control things that are fundamentally out of our control. Yeah. Kurt Nelson 0:36 Wolfgang brings a unique perspective to this conversation. He's lived all over the world. He speaks six different languages, and he has this wonderful ability to make complex psychological concepts accessible without dumbing them down. And that's really good for Tim and me, right? Yeah, and I say when we talked about the triangle, this this emotion, thinking and behavior, you'll listen to it. And if you listen to the episode and find out more, it really crystallized for me. And his comments put that all together in a really meaningful way, Tim Houlihan 1:14 absolutely. You know, what I loved about our conversation with Wolfgang was the central premise of we need to, we end up spending way too much energy trying to change other people, and in so doing, we forget how much power we actually have if we were only focused on what we can control, which is two things that he outlines. One is our own behavior in a Kurt, of course. And then second thing is where we direct our attention. So it's not what we avoid paying attention to, but it's where we actively choose to focus our attention, Kurt Nelson 1:47 right? So I should give up trying to change you. Right? Is that what if? Tim Houlihan 1:54 Because it's only leading to frustration? Oh, God, Kurt Nelson 1:56 I get so frustrated. You just don't do this right now? No, you are absolutely right. And I think that distinction is crucial, right? The distinction about it where we pay we direct our attention and not what we avoid paying our attention to that distinction, I think is really cool, and he makes it very practical as well, together. You know, it's whether it's dealing with stress, managing relationships, or even something as simple as repeatedly entering a password that doesn't work. Gives us a framework for recognizing when we're digging ourselves into a futile struggle that we're just gonna get stressed and stressed about, and more importantly, when it's time to, as he says, throw away that shovel. Tim Houlihan 2:49 Oh, man, that made so much sense to me, throwing away the shovel. Okay, we also got into some fascinating some fascinating territory around health, the costs of control in our relationships, of course, and even how to think about life goals through the lens of what you'd want people to say about you at your funeral. Kurt Nelson 3:08 That was powerful. I like that part. Yeah, Tim Houlihan 3:12 okay, so sit back and relax with a good old cup of staying in your groove and out of the grind. In our conversation with Dr Wolfgang Linden. Tim Houlihan 3:29 Wolfgang Linden, welcome to behavioral grooves. Speaker 1 3:33 Thank you very much. Great to meet you guys. Tim Houlihan 3:36 It is a pleasure to meet you and to have you here. And we're going to start with a short speed round to kind of loosen things up. And we'd like to start first with, would you rather learn a new instrument or a new language? Speaker 1 3:48 New instrument, because I already know a few languages. Tim Houlihan 3:52 What languages do you speak? Already Speaker 1 3:56 German, English, French, Spanish and a little bit of Kurt Nelson 3:59 Swedish? Oh my gosh. Okay, you're putting us to shame. And you did. You did a podcast in French, right? Did I hear that right in our pre conversation? Yeah. Speaker 1 4:10 Well, I went to school in Montreal and married a French Canadian, so I My ears got some exposure. Speaker 2 4:17 So you speak Quebecois? Yes, yeah. So I Yeah. Speaker 1 4:22 If I'm in France, they tell me where I learned it. Tim Houlihan 4:28 No, that's, that's not the worst. Okay, what? What do you have an instrument come to mind? By the way, what? What new instrument would you prefer? I've Speaker 1 4:35 learned a little bit of guitar and clarinet as an adult. Actually, I'd like to get back to clarinet playing. It's a beautiful instrument, and I just left the sound Tim Houlihan 4:44 the licorice stick. Yes, yes, it is fantastic. Okay, all right. Kurt Nelson 4:49 Kurt, okay. Are you a coffee drinker or a tea drinker or something else? Unknown Speaker 4:56 Coffee, coffee. That is very. Kurt Nelson 5:00 This daily? Is it a daily morning routine, or is it just a every once in a while thing? What? What is it? Speaker 1 5:07 One quite laced cup in the morning, and that's it. I get one a day. But that's my kickstart. Tim Houlihan 5:16 I like that. Okay, third speed round question, which are we more in control of our emotions or our environment? Speaker 1 5:27 Emotions more than environment, but we're not that good at the emotions part, either, and we should talk a bit more about that. We are Tim Houlihan 5:35 going to definitely talk more about that absolutely. Kurt Nelson 5:38 Kurt, this is the last of our speed round questions here, and I have, I'm choosing between two, and I'm kind of going back and forth. So I'm, I'm, I'm trying to figure out which one I'm going to go with. This one. It was, it was this subtitle within, within your book, are feelings a friend or an enemy? Yes. Speaker 1 6:08 I could, I could speak to both. I mean, point is to turn them from enemies to friends. Kurt Nelson 6:15 Yeah, it was a really interesting part, at least for me, because it's one of those things we often think dichotomous, right, that they're one or the other, but you were basically saying, Look, you can take them and you can you can turn them and they have different components around this. So I'm sure we'll get into that as we as we talk more throughout the throughout the episode here. But yeah, so we are excited to talk to you about your new book, The illusion of control. And let's start with this myth, this myth that you kind of bring up, that I am the master of all that I survey and that I have individual agency, all the good things that have happened in my life are resulted from my intention and effort. You know, what are we getting wrong with that kind of myth or concept? Speaker 1 7:04 Well, you are, of course, tremendously shaped by your background. And when I look at people I've met, whether it's patients or students or friends, people come equipped with very different degrees of confidence about their own ability. Some of them are way too cocky, claiming things that they absolutely cannot stand behind. Some of them are leading politicians, oops, and they're people who have a lot of abilities but don't have the confidence to share them or to write them or to speak about them or to act on them. So, I mean, even if I look around and among the people that I know, it's really important that you hit that middle of the road where you're just a little less confident than you're able. I think that's the golden point. Tim Houlihan 7:55 Yeah, we do have some agency though, right? Speaker 1 8:00 Absolutely, the I make, you know, I try to make the strong point that you can do two things. You can control your behavior and you can control what you pay attention to. You cannot control what not to pay attention to. This may sound twisty, but it's the way it is. If you think long and hard about No, I can't do this. I shouldn't do this. This becomes an absolutely vicious cycle, and it just gets perpetually worse. And the longer you do it, the more you create a groove that you can't get out of. So what you can do is distract attention, do something else. You can't fall asleep. Do not lie in bed and just rotate the same idea some more and some more and some more. Get out and do something else. If your kids are fighting like crazy, left and right, don't necessarily try to get to them, try to understand their feelings or whatever, just distract them, get them going on some other activity. Yeah. And that works. Distraction is great. At a mild level, you can distract from pain. I mean, there's a certain amount of pain that you cannot distract from, but a small amount you can distract from, and it's life is easier if you manage that. Yeah. Kurt Nelson 9:22 And I love that. I love this concept of focus, like where we focus is where, you know, our attention is, and then that that drives a lot of the the emotion behavior at subsequent as we're going in there, the the concept of that pain part I've experienced myself, where I've had twisted ankle, just as painful, but I can get, you know, all of a sudden watching a movie, and I That pain just disappears until the movie's over, and then suddenly, somehow that pain reappears. And I'm like, you Unknown Speaker 9:52 know, oh, at least you got tours, exactly right. Kurt Nelson 9:56 You get that. I do want to go in, because in the book you talk about. This triangle of of emotion, thinking and behavior. And I think you alluded to behavior as one of those things that you can control. Can you talk a little bit about that triangle and and specifically what you can do about the behavior, and then subsequent, how those three pieces interact? Speaker 1 10:23 Yeah, well, the emotion part, let's start with that corner of the triangle. There's, of course, a ton of literature on it, and one of the issues that sort of crept up in the in that literature is that people often try to avoid negative emotion. And in fact, that becomes a whole process of rumination in itself, because then you just really digging in. It's, you know, forgetting that you know you should throw away the shovel and dig the hole any deeper. But the bottom line is, we have emotions. They're very quick. We are programmed throughout life, very early life. Programming is absolutely critical in how we respond emotionally to situations. It kind of once we realize that we have emotional response, then we also start to realize, Oh, what are the thoughts connected to this, and what are the behaviors connected to it? So this desperate avoidance of emotions just doesn't work. We have them. They're normal. It's okay to be angry sometimes. Don't do too much damage while you're at it. Of course, it's normal to be depressed and have a bit of a low time where you think stuff through and maybe even a little pity with yourself, and it's okay to be anxious. I mean, there are a lot of things out there that really are dangerous, and you have to spend some time and effort to figure out which ones are what, what's excessive anxiety that really isn't that bad and what is perfectly dangerous to stay away from. So and there are variations on this theme. It's like, I've always been scared to ride a motorcycle, and I don't have any intention to changing that, because I think those things are darn dangerous, and that's okay, yeah, I don't need to ride a motorcycle. Yeah, yeah, Kurt Nelson 12:14 totally. And you talked about this in the book about, like, all right, I can be anxious about going up and talking to my teacher, or, you know, my boss at work, or some somebody, yet I can still do that behavior and and the behavior itself. Then can, you can then reassess the thoughts and the emotions and by because you're doing it, it's the basic of, you know, cognitive behavior therapy. So did I get that right? Is that? Is that correct? Absolutely? Speaker 1 12:45 Yep, absolutely. And I mean, a standard part with depression therapy is here you have a person who's withdrawn, who doesn't do much with other people, who thinks very little off themselves. So clearly, they have actively taken away all the activities that were enjoyable. So it's much easier to get them to do something at a behavioral level that might bring enjoyment, then turn it around and say, well, first you have to learn how to have fun. You engage in the behavior to activate the rest. So just by going and doing something with friends, call up a friend and said, I just have a need to, you know, get out of the house and have a cup of coffee, a beer, whatever. Hopefully you have friends that you can do that with. That's a great step, just to break out of that cage, right? Tim Houlihan 13:38 So, and, yeah, kind of a fake it till you make it model, yeah, Unknown Speaker 13:42 yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not a bad concept. Tim Houlihan 13:45 It's really, yeah, no. It's really not. I love the subtitle of the book, A Practical Guide to avoid futile struggles, man, like that. Kurt is laughing because like that speaks to me. Wolf, Kurt that really speaks to me. You know, I would love in my life to avoid futile struggles. I'm a cognitive miser, right, like all of us. So there's a part of me that just feels like, why, why don't I throw away the shovel from time to time? But, but you, challenge readers to become aware of our attempts at control are just costing us. They're just costing us. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about those costs. Speaker 1 14:34 Well, you look at it from lots of different angles. One would be a more interpersonal one is if you're trying to control other people to get them to do something that will improve your quality of life, you may actually ruin those relationships, which you otherwise you know would have a chance to enjoy so and who wants to be controlled by somebody else? You know, it's not really a popular theme, then they're just, you know, habits. I mean, one of the most elementary ones I can sort of think of is I sign on to my computer and I punch in a password somewhere, and it doesn't work. Well, I can do this two or three times because I thought I might have mistyped something first time I tried. But if I've missed done this three or four times, you just gotta stop. You know, there's something wrong here that does not need repeating, but it's so tempting because it's so easy. You know this password so you said maybe a number six time is going to work. You work. Number two and three might work. And five and six, it's over. Yeah? Or if, if you hear something, people discourage you. So my own experience and take home messages that the first time you somebody discourages you, don't let them you know the number of times who's able to find money in pots that people told me don't exist because it kept digging. On the other hand, if, if you hear from three different parties incredible ways that a certain thing you're trying to do just doesn't work, can't work, you might as well believe it, walk away, do something different. You know, you got to invest a bit, try a bit, and at some point this trip is sinking. Get off Kurt Nelson 16:29 your example of passwords, I think is right on the spot. I know I was laughing because I realized I have been there the second, third time, still didn't work. But you know what? I better try a fourth time, maybe, maybe a fifth time, because maybe I messed up, even though I put it on another view and I can read it, and it's reading, reading exactly like I think it's supposed to be. But I'll try it another time, because maybe this time it'll work, but it's very Oh, go ahead, Tim Houlihan 16:58 Tim. Well, I wanted to kind of follow up on this, this delicate balance, because it reminds me of the George Bernard Shaw quote about the reasonable man, where Shaw says, you know, the reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to Himself. Therefore all progress depends on the Unreasonable Man and and so to some degree, we have to kind of listen to our spirited guides of the world and go, let's just adapt. When is it that we when should we listen to that angel on our shoulder that says, Don't give in? Is there a guide? Is there a way to think about that to help us. You know, sort through the I'm just gonna, I'm gonna listen to what other people are saying, or no, I'm not well. Speaker 1 17:51 For starters, this is a great quote. I wish I had it in the book that you know, would have helped me make, make the point. I don't think I can come up with any quick, quick idea on there. It's maybe adopt a number for yourself, like three, and try it out and see whether that works. Kurt Nelson 18:14 The think it was, I think it was interesting, though, because Wolfgang you talked about this idea of like, if it's yourself, you can keep going. If you're you're telling yourself you can't. But then you decide you can, you can do that. And then, even if you get one naysayer, that one naysayer, all right, you know what? They have their own perspective. It's when you get that you know, group of people who you you value that. You say, yeah, they can be there. And we've talked with Annie Duke about her book quit, which is one of these pieces where people that the premise of it is that we quit at the wrong times. We either quit too soon or we quit too late, and there's this element of making sure that you're not giving up too early. And that happens quite a bit. But, you know, the predominance is that we quit too late. And so it there is this component of saying, as a as an individual, how do you, you know, take on some of those challenges that are facing you that, all right, the I'm going to go out and try to change the world. But there's, there are, there are some indications that you should just, you know, call quits. And oftentimes, at least, from what Annie is saying, is that is other people who know you, understand you really well. They're the ones who are telling you. So listen to them to a certain degree. Speaker 1 19:42 I think that's a great point, because I keep and I think that's because I'm a psychologist thinking about, what are other people's motivations, right? Are they interested in helping me, or are they just strangers? And so if I have a really good friend. And then, by definition, I will trust that friend's judgment, you know. And so actually, there have been scenarios where in a circle of friends, somebody has a new partner, and somebody said, What do you think? Should I marry that woman and a really good friend? And the honest one might say, no, there and I mean, this person has, there's nothing to gain, right, from being honest with you, yeah? But if that friend who knows you, knows your life story and knows your habits and whatever, says, Yeah, I think you guys are a good fit, it means something with strangers, totally different story, right? So I don't know, I go on the telephone to call a telephone company and complain about my plan, that it's too expensive, and I don't get, you know, good answer. Well, I can either go to the competition or I say, let me talk to a supervisor. Or, you know that the person that operates a special line about people want to drop out of the company, and then you might get a different answer. Again. You heard it three times. You might as well believe it. You know, somewhere in this two to three to four ranges, I think, where it's at and understanding what's the motive of the person who you're talking to Tim Houlihan 21:20 I think that's a great heuristic right there, that that's a great way of thinking about it. Kurt Nelson 21:28 Hey, grooves, we want to take a moment away from our conversation to thank you for listening to behavioral grooves. If you enjoy the conversations we're having and want to help us keep the groove going, here are a few simple ways that you can support Tim Houlihan 21:41 the show. First off, subscribing to our sub stack is a great way to stay connected with us between episodes. The weekly newsletter provides you with cool insights that are beyond the episodes, and they get delivered straight to your inbox. Kurt Nelson 21:54 And if you haven't already leaving a review or a rating of the podcast on a platform like Apple or Spotify or YouTube helps other curious minds discover us, and there's two great things about that. One, it gives us a boost. And two, it costs nothing Tim Houlihan 22:10 and it only takes a second, but it makes a huge difference for us. Plus, we love hearing from you, so don't be shy. Leave us a review or give us a quick Kurt Nelson 22:19 thumbs up. We're coming up on 500 episodes, and we're doing this because we love the conversations we have with our guests. Yeah, Tim Houlihan 22:26 we also want to do it because we love bringing you insightful behavior changing content every week, and we hope that some of those insights will help you find your groove. I'm curious about health applications, specifically, like sleep, obesity, addictions, to what degree are these kind of health issues related to control? Speaker 1 22:52 Well, these are things that we want to do and likely need to do, but the examples that you're citing, and then, I mean, I cover them in the book, of course, are very much biology based, or biology driven, not purely, but you know, the people argue that, you know, obesity has nothing to do with willpower. Now, that's a little simplistic for me, but on the other hand, obesity is strongly driven by biology, and people who have been obese for a long time have an incredibly hard time to shedding that weight. I could lose a few pounds myself, and it's it's an awful struggle. Older you get, the harder it gets. But again, there's a lot of learning in there as well, and you can drive yourself crazy, yeah, and if you really dig in, let's stick with the obesity for a moment, our body actually is tricking us, right? Because if you systematically deprive yourself of calories, your body is very smart and learns how to live with fewer calories. So the next time you try to do this again, you would have to set the bar even lower and even lower, and you get even less and even less, to the point where you don't have enough energy to get through the day. Yeah. So you know what's behind the research refer to as a set point, like your body knows where you should be, and it will try to get you there again and again and again, and you could possibly trick it by making very small, steady changes so you don't wake up the alarm bells of the setup. You try it too hard, it'll wake up and get going. I mean, my NASA thesis was actually on sort of long term outcomes of weight loss programs. And it was abundantly clear that there were, I think, only women in this particular study. There are women who are eating so little they would gain weight if they had 1000 kilocalories a day instead of 800 oh my gosh, and that is so little weight that I mean you before. Frustrated as hell if you had to deal with that kind of a struggle. Tim Houlihan 25:04 And like you said, how can you how can that be enough fuel in your engine to cut, to keep you going, to keep you alert, to keep you active, Speaker 1 25:13 it won't be so either you have to regulate it by not so much eating, but more with energy output or you need to get help. I mean, now we have medication that is quite powerful, although it's not anywhere near as powerful as some people hold it out to be, because it's a very long term thing. The weight loss is not quick, and unfortunately, we the research is out also showing that if you stop, you'll gain regain the weight. So, yeah, you're talking about taking a medication, likely for a lifetime. That's not a nice prospect. Kurt Nelson 25:49 No, yeah, let's you. You also bring up and you talk about stress reduction, and you talk about a number of different ways that people can, can help in controlling their stress. Don't want to. This is often, sometimes, I think we ask authors to pick their favorite child, right? And so like, is there, is there a particular way of approaching stress that you find like, this is the one that I really like, because you do bring up a number of them in the book, Speaker 1 26:23 means stress usually is the result of as having more expectations or abilities than seem to be needed at the moment or so. But for me, it's really important that you have an idea about what is important in your life, because if you have to choose from three options, not all of which are possible at the same time, you have to prioritize. But that priority setting has to be part of your your value system, or your your life goals, right? So if it's really, really important to be an honest person with with integrity, then sometimes that tells you that this is the more important decision to make, rather than the shortcut that gets you more money or some response that you want, but that really is not in line with with where you want to go, and have one psychologist colleague, who I quote in the book as well, Stephen Hayes, who had a workshop. I had organized that workshop, it was giving the example of ask people, this is a therapy kind of question, but you can ask it to anybody. What do you want people to say about you when you're dead, like if somebody has to give the eulogy, right? Do you want them to say that he busted his chops to make a lot of money, or that you tried the best you could to raise your kids with you know, the limited money that you had and that you actually overcame a lot of hurdles in your life. If you can answer that question, then you have a guidepost, right? So the next time you have decisions to make, is it A, B or C that I do and you look at your own values and goals, it's B, yeah, and then it's really not stressful anymore to discard a and c because there is a, there's a big picture here. Tim Houlihan 28:35 I love that, because we it's one of the I think what Kurt and I see is a lot of people struggle with with that alignment, with aligning the world that they're living in and the things that they're doing, and how they're spending their time with who they are, their deepest sort of true self or core values. And I love this heuristic, this, this this question, this therapeutic question, to have an end of life goal post as a way of measuring what, what you're doing now Kurt Nelson 29:07 it, it's the Alfred Nobel, right? It's, it's the, you know, Alfred Nobel, who you know, like they mistakenly had said that he was dead and he saw his obituary, you know, in the paper, I don't know, no one, it changed his life. Yeah, that's why he started the Nobel Prize. Is because he was a ammunition. He created gunpowder, sold it, and was wealthy, and he came across a newspaper that said he had died, and it was actually his brother, but they wrote it about him, and from that perspective, it set this light bulb off in him to say, that's not how I want to be remembered. I want to be remembered not as this person who you know, sold dynamite and allowed people to die in wars and various different things. I want to be known. For peace. And obviously you can get from from that the Nobel Peace Prize and other prizes that subsequent game, and he changed his life Speaker 1 30:08 every woke up in him the sense of I got one more chance of living a life, the right kind of life that I could be proud of. Yeah, yeah. Tim Houlihan 30:19 The book brings up a lot of challenging situations, right and and sort of challenges, some underlying, well, myths and issues that we have. But there's also a real sense of optimism. You Is it? Is it fair to say that you have a deep sense of optimism about being able to for us, you know, general humans to work through this. Speaker 1 30:45 I do. I think you're picking on something that a is part of me and but I just don't like it when people have expectations, that that will, that they constantly fail in so by being somewhat modest about your optimism, you might be able to set goals that you have some chance of reaching, and then things are good. I mean, then you're achieving something, and you could be satisfied. But if you have these, these wild goals that you don't get anywhere near, then things are pretty miserable. Tim Houlihan 31:23 Were you? Do you think you followed that? Do you did you set modest goals? You speak six languages, and you've lived all over the world and written papers that have influenced 10s of 1000s, hundreds of 1000s, millions of people. Speaker 1 31:39 It's hard to go back and figure out exactly where this comes from. I mean, I'm coming from a typical middle class family. My parents ran greenhouses in a flower store, and so we didn't have family members that, you know, we're Nobel Prize winners or leading politicians or anything. But somehow, my my family, my parents, my environment, had me believe that I have ability and agency and and I've gone with it. And so one piece of life advice that I've often been asked about is, well, if you have great opportunities, say yes, you know, if somebody says, Okay, here's a free course that you could take, it takes a bit of effort, but it's free, and you might learn something, you can say yes to it. I mean, you don't say yes to every stupid thing you're like, you know, let's see how close you can get to the edge of the abyss and see whether you fall in. You don't need to say yes to that, Kurt Nelson 32:43 okay? Or say yes to like Tim asking me to do a podcast or something like that. Don't have to say yes to that, right? You guys. Speaker 1 32:55 So, and I mean, the environment matters too, right? Because when it comes to language learning, for example, first of all, I didn't have a choice. The high school I went to you started with English in grade five, Latin in grade seven, French in grade nine, that's just we didn't ask. Nobody asked us whether we wanted that or not. But then at the university going did up to the Masters in Germany. There are no tuition fees. This is a hard concept to understand. So I could take whatever courses I wanted at no expense other than my time. And I thought, I want to do something different. I don't want to do only psychology, because it makes me too narrow minded. So I take a language course or philosophy or anatomy, which actually turned out to be very useful for a psychologist. Yeah. So it's, look around, look at those opportunities and say, What can I add to my life that's that makes things interesting with without excessive, you know, cost the and I mean, once you want the move, you know that the more things in reach, the more ideas they're more interesting people and and more interesting people become more interesting role models that you want to emulate, yeah, but you have to put yourself out there. Yeah. Kurt Nelson 34:15 I love that. I think there's a there's some real wisdom in this, this component. And I remember doing, I was a guest on a podcast, and they, you know, in the in the conversation, they were asking, Well, you know what, what drove and I said, I said yes to things, you know, that's where, where it was, just, if there was an opportunity, I said, Yes, it was and sometimes it was foolish. I mean, I was in over my head in a few things, but it wasn't. There were never yeses of like, getting to that, as you said, the edge of the abyss. There was never any physical danger. There was only reputational or or, you know, business type of failure that invented yet. Speaker 1 34:58 So you didn't need. Didn't put it on a camera Kurt Nelson 35:01 Exactly, exactly, fortunately. So there's, there's, there's something about that. And if you take that and know that, you can say yes, and some of those are going to work out wonderfully. Some of them, they'll be just right that that happens as well. And some you might even like, I never want to do that again, but that's a learning. All of those are ways to learn not only about yourself, but how you fit into the world. And I think that's really important when we're thinking about these types of these types of things. So there's no question there it was Unknown Speaker 35:37 as we go, tell us Tim Houlihan 35:40 we'd love to get your thoughts Wolfgang on being in your groove. You know, here we on behavioral grooves. We talk about people finding their groove, people living in their groove, some kind of a an extended version of flow with that's more rhythmic, you know, it's got some highs and lows. What do you think about that you written about being stuck in a groove? Speaker 1 36:05 Well, the thing is that if you're in the right groove, then I suspect you consider it the right groove because you're productive, you're socially embedded, you get emotional satisfaction out of it. So I couldn't see any darn reason for why you want to get out of that groove. There are plenty of times where you're in a groove where you don't quite realize that you miss things that are over in the other groove. And if you start thinking about them, watch a few other people what they do and how much enjoyment they get out of life. I realize now I could do different things. I could do a bit of experimenting. And, I mean, it's simple things, like many people go to a restaurant that they like, and they order the same food item all the time, and I don't, can't tell you why, but I've never been that person. I go over the menu and want to have the most exotic things. I am not going to go to a restaurant and order something I know how to cook. I order something I don't know how to cook, and maybe bring an idea home for, you know, cooking my own stuff. So but the thing is, we often fall into the same pattern just because it is familiar. It's like, but people who are not so good at choosing partners. And, you know, I had a number of those in therapy situations. I've had people who like for 345, times they picked the partner was just the wrong person for them. Yeah, and, and as somewhat together, we figured out, okay, this is what you're looking for. But three, four or five times in a row, you talked about the heuristic here, right? What's the right number, you picked the wrong one. How does that happen? Well, the way it happened. And some of the patients that tell you really are they? They teach you, they instruct you on what the story is. They say, Well, when I met the new person, this was so familiar, so I fell into this trap of wanting to go after the same person, and I'd forgotten how that familiar ended up. But at the beginning, it was just, I was at ease. I know this. And then there's a situation, no, the moment you've meet a new partner who, you know, has certain characteristics and makes you feel at ease, is the one to run away from, you know. So it has to be somebody who offers a very new flavor, it could turn out not to be a good one, I don't know, yeah, but try it. Tim. Kurt Nelson 38:49 I have to align here a little bit with Wolfgang, because there was when we started this many years ago. We came up with the name behavioral grooves. And Tim and I had two different interpretations, because we didn't talk to each other about what we believed. We both liked the name behavioral grooves. Tim was thinking it was about behavior and music grooves being groovy, and kind of getting into a groove like you do in a musical component. I was thinking about it more line in what you're saying, it's the behavioral grooves, the patterns that we follow, the ways that we are, you know, the habitual components that we have in our lives. So you're sucking up to the guests here. You're sucking up. Finally, somebody agrees with me and I'm feeling validated here. So thank you. Thank you very much. Speaker 1 39:43 I mean, clearly, when you gave me a chance to talk to you guys and and get something out on behavioral grooves, it directly just connects with a book. You know, it's a section ended on it, right? This is cool. I mean, this, this is, this is my voice piece, my mouth piece. Unknown Speaker 39:58 This is this. Is, Tim Houlihan 40:01 yeah, let us be your megaphone. Absolutely what, you know, we talked a little bit about about this before, but is, is there something in the book that you're like, you know, I'm not sure. When I talk to some people about the book, if they're really getting this, this golden nugget, and I want to make sure that they get that Wolfgang. Is there something that you've noticed in your conversations with editors or or, or you know, anyone reading the book? You go, Gosh, this is really precious. And I just want to make sure that they get that. Speaker 1 40:40 Well, there is a sort of a subtitle, like when you put a book proposal together, you're often asked to give a one sentence description of the book other than just the title. So it's an expansion of the title. And that simply was, you know, people spend way too much energy trying to change other people, and in that process, forget to realize how much power they have if they exploit their own abilities and control the things in their own life that they can control. So that's the big picture message, you know, out there. And I mean the book may look pedantic to somebody, because I'm really trying to build it up as this is a problem, if you don't do it right, these are the opportunities. This is how you can apply it. And so I really think it's a book that you can't just read bits and pieces, then you're missing the the whole construction. It's kind of like, it's like a house, right? So you read the third floor and the annex and the garage, then you don't see the house. You really have to, you know, follow, you know, this is the foundation. This is the main stuff. This is the decoration. So the bits and pieces approach would really miss out on what I was trying to achieve, to take the whole thing? Kurt Nelson 42:06 Yeah, I love I love that, that it's the it's greater, that it's not the parts are individual. There's a there's a summation around that. But I really like what you talked about it that the the one line about we spend too much time thinking about changing others or controlling others and in we, if we took that energy and focused it back in on ourselves, our lives would be demonstrably better. Is that? Is that a fair statement from am I capturing that, that essence? Speaker 1 42:37 Yeah. And I think not only that, I think also the other people would like you better if you don't go run around all the time trying to change others, let them be. They say, Oh yeah, I want to be friends with the guys who's allowing me to be myself. Kurt Nelson 42:53 Tim, I'm sorry. I'm just saying that right out now I'm sorry for all the controlling things I've been trying to do for you for all these years, here we go, Tim Houlihan 43:03 water under the bridge, more maybe, maybe a typhoon under the bridge. But Wolfgang. We're like to play a little hypothetical game here. And imagine if you were on a desert island and you had a listening device that that you could have two musical artists on you get their whole catalog, but you could only, only have two musical artists on it. What two artists would you choose to take with you on that desert island? Speaker 1 43:37 One would probably be a classic like Bach or Schubert, just somebody sort of giving me a safe, safe environment in which to kick back and not meant to provoke huge emotions. Just, Tim Houlihan 43:57 oh, the Speaker 1 44:02 pleasant harmonic, rich, but not not threatening in any which way. Yeah. Tim Houlihan 44:10 Would would Beethoven or Wagner be too emotional for you? Unknown Speaker 44:14 Wagner especially, Tim Houlihan 44:18 I'm with you. I'm with you, by the way. Speaker 1 44:21 But then when it comes to more more modern music, which would be the other piece, that's quite a range. I mean, it has a lot to do with age, like always, like Moody Blues, okay, so that there we were very much into Jethro Tull, which probably not a lot of people know about anymore, but also because they're really beautiful musicians. Two concerts, and it was one of the few concerts where they didn't just play pieces. They played a piece. And. Then they they shifted. They metamorphosed from that one piece to the next by just reducing it down to one instrument. That instrument did the change, and it flowed into the next piece, and then, and that sort of went all the way through the concert, so that, you know, I was found impressive, but it has to do with, with context. It's like I went to one concert with with the Rolling Stones in Vienna, and I was really disappointed. Wow, they were good. But as a pre band, it was Billy Preston, who I didn't know about, oh, better than the stones. Wow. So it has so much to do with mood of the day. And you know how musicians themselves, you know, operate on that particular day. I'm sure they have good or bad days. I certainly had good or bad days as a teacher. Tim Houlihan 45:57 But I've had that happen. Oh, go ahead, Tim, I've had that happen. I've gone to a show to see a headliner and the opening act, who I didn't I was slightly aware of, blew me away. Like I kind of love that, actually, I sort of love having that experience. I'm sorry. Kurt you. Kurt Nelson 46:16 I was just gonna say that it's interesting again, as we think about this thought experiment, that there is this element of context that you brought up, which is, you know, the music itself needs to be, you know, good. But it's also when I listened to that music, like you mentioned, the concert that you saw, where it was, you know, it flowed throughout. So it evoked a memory for you. It was not just about the music, but you could put yourself back into that place. And I think there's a lot of that when we asked this question, we asked this question almost every single episode, and people often go back to music that was from a younger time in their life, a formative time in their life. And part of that, I think, is that, all right, I'm going to be there alone, I'm going to be on a desert island, and I want to relive, or have that emotion that I can bring to this from those, those memories that is that are being taken so Tim Houlihan 47:19 is that an active control Kurt. Is that what you're Kurt Nelson 47:24 I didn't actually think about that. But dude, no, maybe I don't know. Well, that's the expert. Speaker 1 47:30 I think we have to tie it to brain development. I mean, I'm sure you've heard this, or you know this very well already, but especially, men are a little slower with neocortex development than women, and we need to more or less mid 20s to get that going, you know, they finish up that project. And the kind of music that I attach to is the one that you know, was part of the process of finishing that neocortex development. So how old? It simply doesn't have the same impact anymore. Tim Houlihan 48:03 How old were you when you saw Jethro tall with and I'm sure Ian Anderson was just Speaker 1 48:08 23 Yeah, yeah, I wasn't finished with neocortex development. I mean, I could, you know, get some work done. But there's, there's a whole bunch of other things that happened to fall into place, relationship stuff, and how to integrate balance various things in life. Kurt Nelson 48:32 It took a while. And yeah, yeah, Tim Houlihan 48:36 we are so grateful for the time that we've had today. Wolfgang, thank you so much for being a guest on behavioral grooves. Speaker 1 48:43 That was lovely conversation. We enjoyed it greatly. Kurt Nelson 48:57 Welcome to our grooving session where Tim and I share ideas on what we learned from our discussion with Wolfgang. Have a free flowing conversation and groove on whatever else comes into our very unfocused brains. Tim Houlihan 49:09 Man, it's hard. It's hard. It is we, Kurt Nelson 49:13 you know you and me. It's like, oh, man, squirrel, Tim Houlihan 49:19 yeah, I'm sorry. Were you saying something shiny, bright light, exactly, but that's life and that. And, you know, it's part of our genetic code, and so it's what are we choosing to focus on? What are we going to put our attention on? I think is a really wonderful that, of course, has has something to do with some self awareness, and it also has to do with like, where you're at in the moment. Yes. Kurt Nelson 49:48 Oh, so so much, right? So I think there was a central theme, right? Is this idea that, you know, control brings us. Piece that that if we can just control the world, if I can control what you said in these interviews, instead of you spouting off things that I didn't, I wouldn't have gone that way. You ought to have this said it this way, right? Or you verse vice versa. I think you know that is That's an illusion, that we have that control and we just need to give it up. Do Tim Houlihan 50:25 you actually think that while we're doing interviews? Oh god, are you like? Are you trying to rewrite use your mind control? Kurt Nelson 50:36 Tim asked this question. Tim asked this question. Oh, you didn't you asked a better question. There you go. But that Tim Houlihan 50:43 just leads to frustration and anxiety and disconnection. Man, that's a grind. That is the definition of a grind, isn't it? It? Well, Kurt Nelson 50:51 it is particularly because then I'm I'm not paying attention to what is you're actually saying, and what, you know, the our guest is responding, I'm focused in on what I think you should be saying, and trying to control that and and that is, you said it is, it's, it's a grind, right? And so we have to just let that go and notice that the real groove comes from not controlling, but focusing my attention on what's important, focusing in on the conversation that's being had in front of us. I love that this conversation right now, Tim Houlihan 51:31 right now. I love that you kind of go with this. You sort of default to the Zen thing about let Kurt Nelson 51:36 go start. I was trying. I was trying to convince you to say something else, and it didn't Tim Houlihan 51:42 work in mind control. So it is weird that we have this paradox, right? That that our genetic code seems to say, if you're in control, life is going to be better. I'm the master of all my all I survey. And yet the reality is, life is actually better off when we when we let go of that. I mean, this is, it's kind of a funny, slash ironic thing that there are a lot of world religions that that focus on, you know, you know, I grew up in a Christian, Catholic world, let go and let God, right? Yes, you're not the master, like God has a plan for you. And yet, how many people who, you know, believe in that really endorse that and deal with and live it. It's it's hard, it's really, really hard to to live in that, that space of, I don't control everything, because our genetic code says I want to control everything well. Kurt Nelson 52:36 And Wolfgang brings them this really great component, right? Is that we are shaped by our backgrounds. We're shaped by the people that we grew up with, the community, our biology, right? The you know, the emotions that we're feeling at the moment, that we don't know where they came from, impact, how we you know what we do. So all of that comes into this idea that we're in control, and it's like, no, we've been programmed. And sometimes you have to let go of that programming. So Tim Houlihan 53:13 that is it. And this illusion of control, just, I just have to make a note, because in going back, you know, Linden didn't come up with this. This goes back to Langer in 1975 like there's been a lot of research on this for a long time to try to sort of tease apart, what are the what are the issues aligned with the solution of control? And I think that Wolfgang Linden has done a great job of making it salient in his book. Also, I just want to emphasize this idea. The second thing that he talked about was this, the the fact that we are not, we're not going to be so good about not thinking about the thing that we're told not to think about, Kurt Nelson 53:56 oh, I'm not going to think about that. Tim, good, okay, Tim Houlihan 54:01 what am I not thinking about the pink elephant? Just, just pink elephant. Don't think about the pink elephant. Okay, yeah, don't think about the white polar bear. Yeah. So of course, it's right there. But we can direct our attention to say, I want to focus on something else. And and this idea of of focusing on something and say, this is going to, it's not just going to occupy my attention. I'm going to actually get into this. I'm going to, I'm going to read something that will engage me. I'm going to listen to a piece of music that will engage me. I'm going to, I'm going to sit down and do some work that will engage me, right? And so those are positive ways out of Kurt Nelson 54:39 it. It's redirecting. It's pivoting. It's taking that idea of not trying to not think about it, but replacing that with something to focus in on. So you can control where you place your attention, right? You can actively choose so you're talking about. A pink elephant, and I can actively go, I'm going to actually think about a white polar bear, and go into the my white polar bear component of this, right? So I'm not thinking about that. What was it? A pink elephant. I'm thinking of a white polar bear. So I can't Tim Houlihan 55:17 I also wanted to call attention to the fact that towards the end of our conversation, Wolfgang brings up this idea of being stuck in a groove. And when we get if someone is stuck in a groove, we call that a rut, or, Kurt Nelson 55:31 yeah, you get stuck in a rut, right? It's, that's the definition of you going around and around and you can't get out. It's a rut, yeah? Tim Houlihan 55:38 Or a grind, you know, it is a grind, right? But in our world, Kurt, in yours, in my world, we talk about a groove as a positive thing, yeah, right. Kurt Nelson 55:47 It's nomenclature. It's as you know it is, yeah, but, but I think it's important, right? So it's when we do get stuck in that rut, when it's over and over, and that grind is just tearing us down. That's where. Again, it's like, where are we focusing? Where do we where can we refocus? Right? And it's finding that right group for you, one that aligns with the values that you have, making sure that the relationships that you have are being positive and supportive, and, you know, making sure that you have realistic goals, that you are, that they're not too easy, not too hard, they are in that Goldilocks realm of goals. And you just, yeah, that's when flourishing happens. So, Tim Houlihan 56:33 yeah, agreed, our idea of grooves is also not about rigidity. It's about fluidity, right? It's about, it's about a sense of rhythm. Yeah, Kurt Nelson 56:49 the robot that was rigid I am programmed to, yeah, I don't know what got into me today. Man, it's one of those days. Okay, all right, all right. So, so finding your groove isn't about control. What if it's not about control? Tim, what's Tim Houlihan 57:11 it about not control? How about, How about how about this? It's about curiosity. Kurt Nelson 57:18 I like that. I like that. I love that, yeah, and noticing where your attention goes and then gently nudging, steering it towards what matters, right? That's Tim Houlihan 57:32 the groove, yeah. Like, the less energy, the energy that we expend trying to control a situation that is uncontrollable. The more time, the more energy, the more focus we have for connecting and creating and growing. That's not a loss of power. It's a redefinition of it. Yeah. Kurt Nelson 57:53 And I think with that redefinition, I want to thank you, listeners for joining us on this episode of behavior grooves, and we hope that you can redefine your sense of control and take some of Wolfgang's ideas this week to go out and find your groove, not your right, your groove, you Unknown Speaker 58:14 you. Transcribed by https://otter.ai