Kurt Nelson 0:00 Hey, welcome to behavioral grooves, the podcast that explores our human condition. I am Kurt Nelson Tim Houlihan 0:13 and I'm Tim Houlihan. We talk with researchers and other interesting people to try to get a little better take on why do we do what we do? Kurt Nelson 0:20 Yeah, why do we do what we do? Tim and in this episode, we're going to explore that idea through this concept of framing the psychological principle that parents use at least sometimes in their lives when they're trying to get their kids to do their schoolwork right. So rather than threaten the kids, the parents might say, if you finish your homework now, you'll have more time to play later. Tim Houlihan 0:49 We know how that works out. Kurt Nelson 0:50 What it doesn't work? Oh, yeah. Anyway, in this case, not so much, but. But we know that framing can have some very strong effects. We've we've seen it. There's lots of research out on there. We've all seen how ground beef is sold and marketed in the grocery store. It's not, you know? It's either it says 80% lean, 90% lean, right? Tim Houlihan 1:14 Yeah, but doesn't that mean if it's 80% lean, it's also 20% fat, right? Kurt Nelson 1:19 But have you ever seen you know that 20% fat out there, right? And they've actually tested this, right? So they they showed one group and 80% lean label, and they showed another group the 20% fat label, right, indicating. And they thought that all right. When they asked those people questions, when they saw the 80% lean that that meat would be higher quality than the 20% fat group. When it's the same, it's exactly the same, framing changes how we think about things. Tim Houlihan 1:54 So this is important stuff, and it's being used all around us all the time. And our guest, Michael clintman, joins us to talk about his book framing, the social art of influence. We're going to discuss the ways that framing appears in the natural world, like when you hear good music, you don't necessarily need a good frame to make it appealing to environments where framing is used to persuade us, such as marketing and political arenas. Yeah. Kurt Nelson 2:19 Now before we head over to our conversation. We just want to let you know and get ready for this framing that many people like you, our listeners, many people like you have referred us to their friends and to their colleagues because they get to laugh and learn in the same conversation. Tim Houlihan 2:38 Nicely done. Very nicely done. I would Kurt Nelson 2:43 like that, since you wrote it okay. Tim Houlihan 2:46 So with that, we invite you to sit back and relax with a double chewy shot of framing and enjoy our conversation with Mikhail clintman. You Tim Houlihan 3:03 m Michael klintman, welcome to behavioral grooves. Mikael Klintman 3:07 Thank you so much. It's really exciting to be with you guys. It's Tim Houlihan 3:12 a pleasure to have you here today, and we'd like to start out by understanding an important question, would you prefer to have dinner with your favorite musician or your favorite athlete? Mikael Klintman 3:23 Oh, certainly favorite musician. I'm more into music that I'm it's a way of saying I'm not very athletic, but it's music is where I could would feel at least stupid in the conversation. Kurt Nelson 3:48 I understand that you have just Yeah, you've made a big friend with Tim. So not that these have a right or wrong answer, but for Tim, that was definitely the right answer on that one, yeah. So okay, Miguel, second speed round question, are you a coffee drinker or a tea drinker? Mikael Klintman 4:12 I am a coffee drinker, but I I make sure to follow my grandmother's advice. And she was, she always said with with horror in her face when we were brewing coffee for her. I hope it's not too weak, because that's dangerous. So, I mean, it was like, like, give her something really, really dangerous. And it was had a special name that I don't think many sweets even know lank, it's called, and that was, you know, really dangerous stuff. Maybe it's psychologically dangerous, I don't know. Wow. Kurt Nelson 4:50 Okay, so, so you drink strong coffee, is that what? I'm strong coffee. This is that don't, don't give me some light brownish color. Where I want it nice, dark and rich and really just bitter on my tongue. Yeah, and Mikael Klintman 5:04 it doesn't have to be this hipster, snobby coffee. It could be instant coffee of the worst kind, but just several spoons. Kurt Nelson 5:20 Too. That's fantastic. I like, I'm gonna, I might, I am. Actually, I'm probably on the other side of that. I will take the weak coffee, but I might have to change my mind. Now you've, you've got me something to think about Mikael Klintman 5:37 here. But is it true that Americans, yeah, American coffee is generally weaker, but the RE is it true that the reason is that you used to drink that with with food, so that it couldn't be too strong and steal all the Kurt Nelson 5:54 favor my my parents drank coffee with Every meal. I mean, that was the, that was the the drink they had with breakfast, it was the drink they had with with lunch, and it was the drink they often had with dinner. So, yes, it would, you would be having coffee and eating, you know, it wasn't a, I mean, you had coffee by itself sometimes, but that was at least for my parents, that was a that was just part of the the evening meal. Every you know, they'd have their coffee cup and we'd have our glass of milk, and there you go. Tim Houlihan 6:31 I see, well, that's so interesting. Okay, third speed run question Mikhail, is this a true statement or a false statement? Framing can be used for good purposes just as easily as it can be used for not so good purposes, Mikael Klintman 6:50 not well. It can be used for either good or bad purposes. And it is like electricity. You can use it for light bulbs in a kindergarten. I mean, who can be against that, or it can be for a lethal weapon, and so on. So it's amoral, but I think it's easier to use framing in maybe not well nowadays, it feels like it's easier to frame things in a bad way and towards misleading us, but we should Unknown Speaker 7:28 nah, but Mikael Klintman 7:30 yeah, a little bit more like that, because you can play on all these tribal aspects of framing. Well, we're Kurt Nelson 7:39 going to come back to that, yeah, yeah, I think we will that. That's very fascinating. Okay, last, last Speed Round question, if my I have two week of coffee in here, obviously not hitting my brain synapses, right here are metaphors a good way to help us frame things, Mikael Klintman 8:03 yeah, I think they are if, if we do it with well, with good intentions, yeah, but it's you can also mislead a lot with metaphors, because we tend to really think that the metaphor is exactly like, like the other other thing here and but I in this book, I try to push that towards the extreme and really use framing, the framing metaphor The whole whole way, not just in a piecemeal way, but it is quite frightening how we can use metaphors in framing so that people really associate, for instance, Certain other groups with with evil creatures that are less than human and and so on. And even if, even when we are understand that this is just a metaphor, it's still the brain is bad at, you know, really understanding what's what's, yeah, just because we understand something intellectually, we don't always do that emotion, yeah, Tim Houlihan 9:27 yeah, that, that's well said. So, so we're here with Mikhail talking about his new book, framing the social art of influence. And let's just start with this idea that you kind of pose, that framing is just about everything, right? And in behavioral science, first of all, let's just talk about that is framing everything is pretty much you can. Can we sort of bring just about everything in our communication back to framing? Mikael Klintman 9:55 No, no, we can't. I mean, I good, hey. It, I distinguish between three ways of perceiving, framing and one is under all those, or the two first ones, they are part of our intuition in ordinary life. So one is well, reality speaks for itself. It should. I mean, if you hear a good piece of music, you don't have to know who the musician is or something. It just goes right into your heart. Good Tim Houlihan 10:32 music is good music. Mikael Klintman 10:34 Good music, yeah. And what else well. And when you hear catastrophes about climate change, and you even see the floodings brought and so on, that that should be enough in order to make us you know, now, we have to get rid of at least one of our cars and fly less and really care about this and so on. But I don't think that really. That's not really how we are built. And I'm talking about, I call it issue rational. So even even if we can often feel that framing, know that reality speaks for itself. It doesn't really. I have a kind of silly example in the book about with the two British tourists who traveled to France and and open one of those really nice cans with with some kind of pate. And it says, Go Go may or go mon and so on. And they eat it and love it. Oh, this is French food. Reality has, I mean, spoken for itself, just just feel the flavor. But then their daughter comes in and say, Oh, you guys are eating cat food, but they loved it and enjoyed it, and that raises, okay, so maybe reality isn't everything. Behavioral economists often say that, well, people are issue irrational. They should care about. There is a core. There is something real, that there are pensions that you want to maximize the level of and so on, but we are kind of insufficient or bad computers, so we have all these biases, or we are influenced by all these framings. If we have a neighbor who we admire, who doesn't save for his pensions at all with, Okay, I'll do just what he does and so on. But, but it's not true that framing is everything so so my but my take on framing is that it's, of course, both the content, the reality in itself and how it's framed that matter, but it's in a particular way. Kurt Nelson 13:17 So Michiel, I wanted to just your subtitle of your book is the social art of influence, right? So framing the social art of influence. Can you help our listeners understand when you're talking about framing, how does it connect with influence and why? Why did you subtitle your book the social art of influence? Mikael Klintman 13:41 So I chose between various types of or terms for that. First I was thinking that I should use something the social tricks of influence and so on. But I thought it was better with art. First of all, I always find it a bit unfair. When I go to art museums, everyone talks about the one who has made the paintings. How about those who have done the the frames? Yes, no one cares about them. And often, to be honest, the framings both the frames and how it's framing and relation with painting is more impressive than the art Tim Houlihan 14:30 itself. Actually, don't tell the artist that Mikael Klintman 14:36 that's one thing, and another thing is that there is something not magical, but there is something with with the techniques, framing techniques you can use, that really changes our our perceptions of things you can for instance, if you you. Sometimes, if someone, well, you can buy really ugly shoes. And if you say, Well, this is ugly fashion, it's a new, new thing going on, which is really hot in Paris or so, you can make people admire those, those shoes. Kurt Nelson 15:18 So crocs, right? I mean, crocs are definitely what you just what you just talked about. They designed crocs as a like. This is the worst type of shoe you could ever develop for a film. And they actually, like, use that as like, these are it? Anyway? I apologize. Keep going. Mikael Klintman 15:40 No, no, that's exactly that. And, Tim Houlihan 15:45 well, let me, let me go back to something that you were, you were, you mentioned this idea, that one of the ideas was possibly, you know, this idea of tricks, yeah, is framing just kind of a bag of tricks. It Mikael Klintman 15:58 can be used as tricks. You can make ugly things seem good. You can make things that people find first felt that was a really bad thing, a really good thing, and so on. And you can make people who are particularly virtuous and do all these great things for the environment. They are often framed as, oh, no, they are or what do you call it in English, when, yeah, they think they're evil. Effect the evil. And you think that they are perfect. They think they are perfect, and so on. You can use it strategically with all these with various tricks, but a lot of our framing is also taking place. We do it without thinking about it and and there is not always this strategic aspect of it. So so much of it in daily life, we take most things, as, you know, as normal as what's always happening Kurt Nelson 17:08 here. And so mikhil, in the book, you talk about rough and smooth framing. Can you explain what you mean by that for our listeners? Yeah. Mikael Klintman 17:21 So, so one, one dimension or one element of framing, is what I call frame texturing. I actually went into a framer to call it a shop where they, they actually do the they frame the art. Yeah, okay, hi. So what can you do with how can you change a frame, physical frame, and they help. He helped me come up with with these four ways of reframing, and this with rough and smooth framing. I call frame texturing. And by that, I mean the rough framing is the, you know, the negative aspect of it could be something that seems dangerous, and another group that seems dangerous that we don't know yet, and so on, but texturing is the basic binary way of well, Tim Houlihan 18:27 you also use some other positioning of frames, like up, down, sideways. How do these aspects of framing fit into the discussion? Mikael Klintman 18:40 So frame positioning is, is how we you know, what is really the issue at stake? What are we talking about here? And it could be, for instance, if we see fast food or junk food, we all love that in some, some ways, and it tastes really good. But then we all have also been informed, since we were little kids, how unhealthy it is, how bad it is. So we have that knowledge and that information. So our normal framing of junk food is that it's, yeah, tastes good, but it's it's unhealthy and we won't perhaps, if we continue eating that, we won't live as long, maybe we'll, yeah, shorten our lives with a couple of years. Who knows? But then they have talked to teenage teenagers, guys who are not, yeah, I was one of them, notorious for eating all this junk food, and they compared. They tried to reframe, nor frame junk food in two ways. They didn't use the term junk foods, because that's. Of course, yeah, framing in and of Kurt Nelson 20:02 itself, right? Yeah. So Mikael Klintman 20:07 one one, framing was okay. You probably, you guys, you probably knew, know that junk food is unhealthy, but do you know that you really need to stop now eating it. You cannot wait until you are 30 or something, because it will start to clog your veins or whatever. And those guys said, Oh, that's too bad. That's a shame, but it's so good. Oh, and that's far away in the future. But then another they tried another framing, and that was okay. Did you know that the industry, the junk food industry, they really, they have the best psychologists in the world, most well paid, who really fine tune the marketing and the ads. So in order to deceive you, or, you know, Tim Houlihan 21:07 at the very least, persuade you. Mikael Klintman 21:09 Persuade, persuade, yeah, yeah, at the very least, persuade, so they are really pushing you and pressuring you, and I think they could show some deception as well. And this industry, they also put a lot of pressure on policymakers so that they won't regulate anything and so on. So they are really they're not on your side, they're against you, and they are trying to deceive you. And that really kicks our Yeah, our ancestor foremothers concern of because it was far more important in hunter gatherer society, where we have lived the longest and not to be deceived then in order, then to eat a little bit less healthy so we can become 85 instead of 88 or something, because people lived until they were 30, perhaps so, so unhealthy food was not an issue, but being deceived was really dangerous, because then you would die an unnatural death. Kurt Nelson 22:17 Yeah, that's a that's fascinating, right again, as we think about the different types of ways to influence as you're talking about here, right? So the framing of healthy and living long isn't as impactful on these teenage boys as the as the framing of You're being deceived these guys are bringing in these high powered social psychologists like Tim and myself, right? I think the other piece you and again, as we're talking through this, you bring up about the size of frames and how, again, the way that you think about this, you talk about frame expansion versus frame contraction. Thought that was really interesting. And can you talk again for our listeners, a little bit about what, what is frame expansion versus frame contraction? Mikael Klintman 23:13 Yeah, so frame expansion is when we feel like in group, or the issue at stake is wider than we when than we previously thought. So. One very nice example is how our moral circles have expanded in the last 200 years, and so partly on the basis of you tell utilitarian thinking with Benham and so on, who said that? Well, we have more in common with non human animals than than we think. And that was even before, yeah, before Darwin. So it was not yet that we were biological, but humans and animals, they're similar in that we can feel pleasure and pain, and therefore an animal should also have the right to, you know, not to be tortured or exploited so that the animal hurt. That hurts the animal, and we can see it in politics too. How countries? I don't know. If you in the Swedish history, you needed passports everywhere. Kurt Nelson 24:44 Hey, grooves, quick break from the conversation to talk about something we don't bring up enough on the show. Yeah, Tim Houlihan 24:50 that's right. When we're not behind the mic, we're working with organizations to apply behavioral science in ways that actually move the needle for leaders and. Teams and whole cultures. Kurt Nelson 25:01 So whether it's designing smarter incentives, boosting engagement, setting goals that actually stick, or helping teams navigate change, we bring real science to real workplace challenges, and Tim Houlihan 25:13 we don't just talk theory. Our approach blends research backed insights with hands on strategies that drive results. Now we've seen small behavioral shifts lead to big wins in Fortune 500 companies and scrappy startups, and even in mission driven nonprofits. Kurt Nelson 25:30 Yeah, and we bring the same curiosity, creativity and care to our client work that we bring to every episode of the show, really, I think Tim Houlihan 25:39 people might want more than what we bring to the show. Kurt Nelson 25:42 You you probably have a point there. You're probably right. Tim Houlihan 25:47 Okay, so we'll bring more care and creativity to our work with you and your teams than what we do on the show. Kurt Nelson 25:54 Yes, more care. So, so if you're ready to build stronger motivation, better team dynamics, and maybe even make your workplace a little more groovy. Tim Houlihan 26:03 Yeah, reach out to us, grab us on LinkedIn or Facebook, or just drop us a line. We'd love to help you and your team find your groove. Kurt Nelson 26:14 I was just gonna say it so given, given that, because obviously in the world today, there's a lot of this, the political aspects going on. So there's the expansion of saying we are more right. So our in group now becomes a broader in group, and we can bring that in, as you said, you know, the human aspects around animals. But also, just as you said, within Sweden used to be our town or our thing, and now it's like Sweden as a whole, and maybe even now European Europe as a whole. But there's the contraction side of this as well, right, which is reducing that so taking taking this broad and bringing it down, and I can and correct me if I'm wrong in this assumption, but I'm, I'm looking at the United States political world where we're in, we used to have a, you know, it was, We're Americans, we are we're this. And it feels like there has been a concerted effort to contract that, no, we are Republicans or we are Democrats. And if you're on the other you're, you're almost not an American, if you don't, don't believe in my group. And so we're shrinking that is, that, is that a example of contraction? Mikael Klintman 27:28 I think that can be an example of contraction. I think, in a way, contraction is inevitable of some kind. I mean, we all want to be idealistic and, oh, let's, let's be one united world where I had this, I went to some I didn't, I wasn't brought up in a Christian family, but somehow I had a painting where the globe and people held hand all around this, right? I should have it makes me happy, but, but Tim Houlihan 28:01 world it's world peace, right? I mean, truly, Mikael Klintman 28:06 that's really nice. But as a cynical sociologist, I need to need to recognize that expansion rarely happens without any any contraction in another way, or subtle or implicit ways, but in the US, I guess you could, could say that, that this is some kind of contraction that has taken taken place, which is and and we see it in Europe today as well. And I've been working also on on issues of that disinformation and knowledge resistance and so on. And people often ask, okay, so what? What should we do about it, then I often say that, which is a very tough thing, thing to do, that we should try to shape a society, if that's possible, so that each of us belongs to several identity groups. We're not, not just one. I mean, I'm a Swedish academic middle class blah, blah, blah, and therefore I believe this and have this esthetic and this view of truth and souls. But you know, when you go to the with the kids to their soccer training, you meet one group there, and, right, yeah. And when you where you live, you have houses of various, you know, kinds and so on. So that could be rich and poor and so. So that's probably to try to blend and make it so that each of us below. Into more Kurt Nelson 30:00 room. What is that part of you talked about? You had a whole chapter on social elasticity, and so that's what I'm hearing you is talking about that. And again, you brought in, I thought was really fascinating, Robin Dunbar, Seven Pillars of friendship into into that chapter and and as you were just talking, you're like, you can kind of see how some of those fit in. Is that? Is that where you were going with that last example? Mikael Klintman 30:23 Yeah, it was. So, that's right. So, so Dunbar's seven. Was it seven pillars of friendship? Yeah, they have studied 1000s of people and seen what they what's most important in order for them to trust someone else and feel like that person and I really, really belong together, and there you have, music taste actually comes very, very high. They don't know Yes, yes and and humor that you can understand each other and where you come from and so on. And maybe that's why where you should try to by mixing people in new ways, so that I don't just listen to music that a middle class academic listens to but also another I had my some friend of mine, my 17 year old, he wanted me to listen to death metal and so on. And I'm trying to like them. Kurt Nelson 31:35 We need to get we need to get Tim to expand his musical genres outside of pre 1978 music. Tim Houlihan 31:43 So there's a lot of great music written Kurt Nelson 31:50 inside joke. Sorry. Tim Houlihan 31:56 I wanted to get back to something you mentioned earlier. You brought up the term behavioral economics, and you talked about Danny Kahneman and and to what degree like, like behavioral economics has, has thought about framing, oftentimes, in losses and gains, or in positioning, things like, like, equivalence framing, like the, you know, 10% of the people will die versus 90% of The people will live from a particular intervention or or emphasis framing, you know, it's this is fast versus this is efficient. And so I'm wondering to what degree is framing, just the context in which we are making these decisions, Mikael Klintman 32:38 and you mean the how we're formulating things. The way they do their research. Yeah, so that's it's an important part of it. But as a sociologist, I want to look broader at framings, but because, sure, in specific experiments, you can see this is the glass half empty or half full, and the 10% risk of dying versus 90% of surviving, and so on. So that works with certain isolated examples, but in the issues I'm interested in, it often have to do with really supporting businesses, but also politics so that environmental issues can be taken more into account. It can be both left and right wing politics and those more complicated things, and also when it comes to so called wicked problems, knowledge, knowledge disputes that were all the or ideological ideologies are intertwined, then it becomes tougher. Framing is often necessary, or reframing is necessary, but it's not, it's not sufficient. So almost always, if you want to have some kind of social change, you need combinations. So I bring in, for instance, the the example of in Amsterdam that they they were very progressive in having bike lanes where they used to be only, where cars were dominating and so on. And first, when I started to read about this, I saw that there was so much focus on framing and the interesting framing that really gained cultural resonance was child murder, so that what the cars are doing is they murder children. It sounds it's terrible. Tim Houlihan 34:59 Yeah, it's horrible. Well, but it's dramatic and vivid. Mikael Klintman 35:03 And yes, and there were, of course, parents out demonstrating, and they also painted physically. They reframed the streets with white colors, so And those, Tim Houlihan 35:17 yeah, the outlines of the bodies of children on the street, yeah, as to where they they would have died, right? Mikael Klintman 35:26 Did they really do that? Well, yeah, maybe they thought it was just bike Kurt Nelson 35:30 sudden. They created, they created bike lanes that like, just by spray painting and the bikes on the lanes. That's what I remember. Actually, Mikael Klintman 35:38 it wouldn't surprise me if they also painted bodies, which was horrible, but so this sounds like a wonderful Wow. Framing can do so much. But if we look, if we think that was in the mid 70s and early 80s, well, they had oil the oil crisis too, and the huge geopolitical aspects of we really need to reduce our oil use and that converge with, okay, we need more people to ride their bikes and feel safe about it. So it's politics and economics and various pressures that that and framing is one part of it. Tim Houlihan 36:19 Yeah, I'm just curious that in all of this framing, there's this wonderful genetic aspect to it. But of course, lots of environmental things about it, as in as in the world that we live in. You You live in Sweden, and I'm, I'm curious about in what ways has Swedish life framed the way that you look at the world? Mikael Klintman 36:50 And this is an effect of framing that the world I live in I take for granted. So it's hard to see it. I think the was particular in my frame, the framing here is that, for instance, it's really important to to say and feel that you you care about environmental issues and health issues and and so on, and equity and equality and so on. So, so it's very egalitarian, and there are some things that are politically correct, that are really expected of you. But sometimes, and I find that fascinating, that it's sometimes enough to say that, yeah, to just show that you are aware of that your consumption patterns and so on. They're bad towards the environment. You understand, you believe in the climate change is taking place, and you believe you are part of harming biodiversity and other things. But that seems sometimes more important than actually doing something about it, and that's in my social, socio economic class, because I've interviewed many other groups, also working class and unemployed and so on, who don't talk so much about environmental issues and health issues, They just live with less less negative impact on the environment. Kurt Nelson 38:43 You had a story in the book about a dinner party that you had as a 20 year old, and this is reminding me of this right where it you each brought some friends, and you realized, oh, this might not work, because I have there's one really conservative woman, and then one really left leaning guy, and there's going to be this fighting and different pieces and and it kind of, it kind of happened that way, right? They were drinking. They ended up having these, these conflicts, but, but in the end, they were going back and forth, having a great time, and then they called you out as, don't you guys believe? And I'm going to get this wrong, but it was something along the lines, like, you don't have strong enough opinions. You don't believe in things, don't you think this is it? And they left and went off, as you said, maybe went to a bar and had a great time talking about this. And you guys were sitting back and, like, having a like, oh, well, all right, glad they're gone, because now it's there. But then you were, like, made you rethink. And like, yeah, maybe we do need to actually, just maybe take a stand, is that did I? Did I capture that Mikael Klintman 39:45 you really did so and that was also quite a Swedish setting, you know, our worry, or my worry, when we Okay, she coming and he coming because I. I have some Italian friends who, when they arrange for a wedding or something, how should people be sitting that they try to, okay, they are so different. These two they should sit there will be interesting for Unknown Speaker 40:16 them to different Kurt Nelson 40:18 than the Swedish like my heritage too. We want we though are on the other side Mikael Klintman 40:23 of each other. Yes, we want consensus, and everyone should feel, feel good, and so on. But that's with a left wing, politically active guy and the right right wing. Yeah, moderate right wing. Woman that really, really shows the power of meta framing, how it is possible to unite, even even when we we seem very, very different, because obviously they had something common, that the rest of us selfish TV watching, Kurt Nelson 41:07 sitting on the couch, not doing anything with our lives while we're out here, saving the world, even though we disagree on it, we're actually active and we're we're living our beliefs out. Unknown Speaker 41:20 Yes, we we need Tim Houlihan 41:23 to, we need to get to maybe the most important kind of questions that we're going to ask, and this is about music. Are you a person that likes to listen to music Mikael Klintman 41:37 while you work? I do. I listen almost always to music when, when I work, but it's very specific. I mean, I played instruments and business singing, and I'm my wife, and I met in a choir. That used to be, that's Swedish thing to it used to be, be the third most common way of meeting your partner in Sweden before internet. It's not like, it's not a cool it well, it's kind of cheesy choir on the top or something. Yeah. But so I'm always, we have a lot of music here, and I'm but it's very important that the music isn't too, too complicated. I love classical music, but it shouldn't be. You could, could not be some singer, because then I start to listen to words, and it can't be. I've tried Bach, but it's too complex. I found my very favorite for working and that's Telemann Tim Houlihan 42:42 the Yeah. Telemann, yeah. It was Mikael Klintman 42:46 in the Yeah, in this. What was it? 17th, 18th century, I think 18th century, yeah. And he's so great for several reasons. First of all, he wrote so much. He wrote huge. Then Bach Handel Beethoven Mozart combined, he did his wife divorced him. She was she didn't think he had balance in his work leisure. Tim Houlihan 43:13 Not a good work life balance. No, not really. Mikael Klintman 43:17 So it's great, and it's great music that fits most. So, so I do that, but then on a when I listen to when I'm not working, then I love, for instance, I think she's forgotten almost Randy Crawford, the singer, the soul singer. Randy Crawford, Tim Houlihan 43:40 okay, not ringing a bell for me, but that's Mikael Klintman 43:43 Rio de Janeiro blue. Unknown Speaker 43:45 Well, oh yeah. Mikael Klintman 43:49 And she's so brilliant because she sings between the black and white notes, I mean the quarter notes. So she has higher musical vocabulary than anyone I know, and it's absolutely no order tuning, and it's full, full control. So that's that's wonderful. And then I like cool on the gang and those things, Thin Lizzy, it's also great. Kurt Nelson 44:17 I'm not hearing the speed metal reference that you are trying to get you into. I'm gonna have Mikael Klintman 44:23 10 extra minutes with that. But actually about music. Actually, my plan was, and my first draft of this book was actually started with a music example about framing. Oh, but I had to take it away, and I'm just gonna mention it briefly. So the setting was, and it's a true story, a subway in New York City, Grand Central Station or something in the subway. So four guys in their late 40s are pulling up their guitars, basses and drums and. And so on. And they look kind of rugged and untrimmed facial hair, and one has a blue cowboy hat. Tim Houlihan 45:08 So they look like musicians, Mikael Klintman 45:12 buskers, buskers, and they started to play. And that sounds really sounds good, and the singer is also good. And they singer sing, am I? I have climbed the highest mountains, the YouTube song, and so on, yeah? And people listen and, well, that's, that's pretty good, but it's a lukewarm atmosphere, and people take the trains and so on. Not much happens, but it sounds good. It sounds authentic. And then a fifth guy is screaming, Oh, this isn't working. Plan B, Plan B. And then Bono, of course, rips off his and Jimmy Fallon, who's from the Tonight Show, yep, shouting and moving around and, and Adam Clayton's face beard is flies off, and then the edge, yeah, and so On, and, and people, the audience, becomes, you know, ecstatic, almost in shock, as they start screaming and cheering euphorically, you know, taking pictures and singing and, Oh, forgot that I'm not going to take the train, that the boss will understand me. Kurt Nelson 46:36 I have you two here, right? Yeah, Mikael Klintman 46:38 you two here, and so on so and I tried to frame this as a reframing from, you know, buskers into you too. But that really was kind of difficult, because it's kind of sad too, isn't it? If music is, we said earlier, that music is the core. Reality speaks for itself. And people were completely, you know, Luke, lukewarm. And then it Kurt Nelson 47:10 kind of kind of goes against that to a certain degree, that reality speaks for itself, because the music didn't change. It was the perception of of the people playing the music, then, yeah, Mikael Klintman 47:23 in the real, real qualities. So it really made us think maybe, maybe the core is actually that the fame and super stardom of these guys and the music just some, some frame, I don't know, but it became a kill confusing, yeah, Kurt Nelson 47:42 Michiel, it's been absolutely wonderful, and I'm sorry our time has kind of come to an end here. But thank you so much for being a guest on behavioral groups. Thank you so much. Great to Speaker 1 47:54 talk to you. Tim, Kurt Nelson 48:04 welcome to our grooving session where Tim and I share ideas on what we learned from our discussion with Mikhail. Have a free flowing conversation and groove on whatever else comes into our framed brains. Tim Houlihan 48:17 We are framed. Boy, aren't we. We are like nothing happened in our brains without some kind of framing, some kind of, oh Kurt Nelson 48:25 no, I was I was talking about being framed. We actually didn't do that, that evil thing that people said we do. We were framed. Tim, we were framed. We didn't rob that bank. We didn't say that mean thing. It was all frame. No, yes, you're you are Unknown Speaker 48:44 you dirty rat? Kurt Nelson 48:48 There is this? It is fascinating to me. Fascinating to me when we actually peel back the layers of how much framing. And again, it's not necessarily purposeful framing. It's not like people are I'm going to frame it. It's just framing happens whether we want it or not. It's part of just how we view the world, and yet it has such a deep impact on us. And I think that is something I know in the communication work that I do with organizations that I often try to convey, and I don't know if it gets conveyed always that that Well, so, yeah, I need to frame it better, I guess. So. Tim Houlihan 49:29 Yeah, I'd also say that while Mikhail has is a sociologist, and he spent a lot of his life thinking about the sociological implications of this, you know, society, society, you know, writ large, I think there's also a lot of work, as you mentioned, in the corporate world, not just in internal communication, but also in persuasion and and framing does play a role in persuasion. It frames a role, as you said, how we speak to each other, how we communicate. So framing. Think, I think has really kind of long tendrils that go out into into the world, and in some ways they're contextual, right? Yeah, you know, I mean the experience that that Mikhail brought up about Bono and you two and with Jimmy Fallon lair in the New York subway, and, you know, nobody recognizes them until they pull off their disguises. And Mikhail asks a reasonable word, like, is their fame actually based on the quality of their music, or is it about their persona, or how much does context have to do with it? And I think that that's, that's a fair question, because, you know, the same thing happened with Jimmy Fallon and Green Day, and we've talked about Joshua Bell from the New York Philharmonic, who is the, you know, the, he is the first violin for the New York Philharmonic, and he went down into the New York so I went and played for 60 minutes, and only one person recognized, Kurt Nelson 50:56 no, no disguise there. He just went down. But he was just, right, yeah, and he had, like, was, I mean, wasn't as he had a million dollar, you know, down there with, right, but, yeah, but that's true. I mean, is it? Is it part of the experience of framing? So, are you seeing him in the New York, you know, Philharmonic and the orchestra hall that he's in, right? Versus the subway. And so, is it the music, or is it the other factors that surround a music? And, you know, there's a mythology around you too. I mean, I've, you know, bought into it. I've seen him five times in my life, right? So, you know, there is that aspect of of the the myth being as larger, larger than than real life. And so part of that comes into play. And yeah, for all we know, that's a cover band down there playing that music, and they play it really well, but it's not you too. Do I care? I mean, it's like putting a record of their music on and you know, all right, great, I'm listening to it, but do I need to really pay attention and be wowed by it? Tim Houlihan 52:14 Well, and that's not why we go to concerts. No, right? As much as the Eagles absolutely wanted to have a live performance replicate, you know, to the nth degree there on their in studio performances. It's still not the same. Now, live performance is a live performance. You just can't not have that. There's something special about what happens there. So, so how do we use let me ask you this Kurt, how can we use framing to improve our groove, to get into our our groove in the world? Kurt Nelson 52:52 What can we do? Yeah, I mean, so framing matters, right? We know that we talked about the the meat, but also, I mean framing matters from the perspective of how you know doctors in their you know, diagnosis and prescription of medicines and different things, and how we frame it. So be aware. So first off, I think you know finding your groove is like be aware. Be aware of how you are framing things, because it will have an impact on those around you, and that then comes back to you, right? And so I think there's, there's some other pieces of there. Tim Houlihan 53:31 So when you go to the gym, like you start by framing your trip to the gym as I'm going to hate this. I hate working out. It's drudgery. The only reason I'm going is because Aaron will know if I don't go. Kurt Nelson 53:45 And that's exactly it. To what you're talking about, I think, is this idea of expectation effects, right? So, yeah, you're framing how. And I talk with my kids about this all the time, because you see it, well, I don't like this. Well, of course, you don't like it because you're stating you don't like it. You haven't even given it a chance. And, I mean, that's, that's how they frame they frame it as I don't like it, therefore they're not going to like it, and they're right, and they're right, yes, and they're right. And I mean it, I mean, you can actually look at this, I think there's, I mean, the expectation effect of, like, some of the Ali, you know, crumbs work of, you know. I mean the bodily response that we have changes in how we you know. And so if we frame something as, as being high caloric, or being lean and healthy for us, our body changes, even if it's the same thing that we're ingesting. So that's one but I think, think the other piece is that you can frame things to like, how I'm going to view like broadening my connections with other people, right? Right? So I can frame like I'm an outgoing person, and we'll talk to people on the on the subway, or oh yeah or not, yeah or not, yeah Tim Houlihan 55:15 or not. You could, you could just, basically just limit the social groups that you have and who you spend time with. Or you could actually choose a framing that says I'm a really interesting person. I have all these different likes, right? Like I love music or I love reading, or I love games or sports or adventure and and I could have different social groups that could actually bring me different perspectives in the world to make me a broader person, kind of intellectually and emotionally as well, too. Kurt Nelson 55:49 Again, there you talked about going, you know, setting expectations about going out to work out, right? But you could also frame going to the gym, not as a as a horrible thing, but it's an indulgence. I get to go to the gym, you know, you can tie that with Katie milkman and her temptation bundling, and you can go, I get to go to the gym, and I get to listen to, you know, this YouTube music that I want to listen to now, because, you know, they're on there. And that's the only time I get to, Tim Houlihan 56:19 I get Dark Side of the Moon start to finish uninterrupted in the order that it was recorded, exactly. Kurt Nelson 56:26 There you go. Yeah. What else you I want to bring this up because we talked about this, but you want to talk a little bit about some of the musicians that he talked Tim Houlihan 56:37 about. There were a couple of musicians that I thought were really worth noting, and we don't oftentimes groove on musicians but, but when we were talking to Mikhail, he brought up Telemann and said he's one of the most prolific composers in history, and I had forgotten this from my days in music school, But he is the most prolific composer in all of history. Like nobody has written as much music as Telemann ever like, you know, he's written more music than Bach Beethoven and Mozart combined. Like he puts all of modern composers The Beatles to shame. They have nothing close to to Georg Telemann. And so if you're at all interested in listening to the guy who has written more, and by the way, it's really good music, he's Kurt Nelson 57:29 probably it's not just, it's not just AI crap, right? Tim Houlihan 57:33 Yeah, it's not no but if, if you're interested in checking out the world's most prolific musician, telemon's whole series of table music, which he called a taffeta musique. Table music is, it's kind of a mix of chamber orchestra and orchestral music, and there's a lot of short pieces. There's a whole bunch of pieces that are, you know, two to four minutes long. So it's kind of like listening to pop music in terms of length. And if you wanted to get a feel for the depth of his talent, check out the TOEFL musique stuff and anything within that realm I think would be pretty interesting. Kurt Nelson 58:09 So is that why he's so prolific? Because he just wrote two minute little pieces. Tim Houlihan 58:13 No, he wrote operas and and large scale symphonies, you know, take 20 minutes to get through and you know all that. So okay, Kurt Nelson 58:24 check that out. Tim Houlihan 58:25 The other, the other artist that caught me off guard and not oftentimes, do Am I unaware completely? But Randy Crawford was totally off my radar. And she is an American blues singer. She's been partnering with, like the greats of jazz and rock and roll for the past 50 years, and I was listening to her stuff. She's got a record called Live at Abbey Road that she partnered with Joe sample on, who is one of the jazz greats in American music. And it's got some great tracks on it. Mikhail actually brought up Rio de Janeiro blues, which is kind of a classic, you know, pop slash blues tune, her rendering of it is outstanding. So I just, I just want to say, check out some Randy Crawford Make, make your life a little better today. You Kurt Nelson 59:15 can frame this as an adventure into music. Unknown Speaker 59:20 Love that. Tim Houlihan 59:21 Yeah, is there anything else that you wanted to bring up here? Kurt, Kurt Nelson 59:26 no, I think that's a wrap. Man, I think that's good. Tim Houlihan 59:29 Okay, okay, good deal. Well, a big thanks to Mikhail for his research and his book. We appreciate scholars digging deep, deep, deep, deep into the world that we live in so we can better understand how we could make better decisions, live better lives. Kurt Nelson 59:42 Yeah, and a big thanks to everyone else. You included listeners who write reviews, leave us ratings or share behavioral grooves with a friend or a colleague. We so, so appreciate that it is really from the bottom of our heart. We know it's just a little gesture, but. Means a lot Tim Houlihan 1:00:00 to us with that, we hope you take some of mikhail's comments this week and you use them to go out and find your groove. You Unknown Speaker 1:00:08 you. Transcribed by https://otter.ai