Unknown Speaker  0:00  
Kurt Nelson,

Kurt Nelson  0:07  
welcome back to another episode of behavioral grooves. I'm Kurt Nelson

Tim Houlihan  0:11  
and I'm Tim Houlihan. Today we're diving into a conversation that challenges many things that you might think you know about, technology and mindfulness. Our guest is Jay Vidyarthi, author of reclaim your mind, and he's got a radical proposition for you. Yeah.

Kurt Nelson  0:27  
And here's the thing, while everyone's telling you that technology is hijacking your brain and you're powerless against all of the algorithms that are out there, Jay argues that we've got it backwards. The problems, as Jay sees it, isn't that tech took our agency away. The problem is that we forgot that we still have it.

Tim Houlihan  0:46  
Jay's a fascinating guy. He's a product designer who runs teams in Silicon Valley, so he's very deep in the tech world, very much so. But he's also spent a lot of time on meditations and silent retreats. He's not anti tech. He's pro intentionality, and he believes the solution to our tech overwhelm isn't digital detox or shame based boundaries. He has a more nuanced approach,

Kurt Nelson  1:11  
or not. It might be radical, depending on your current perspective, but maybe not. Anyway, what Jay suggests is definitely counter intuitive, we need to fall back in love with our technology, right? Well, simultaneously becoming more aware of how we use it. Oh, I gotta get that way. All right. It's about fighting design with design, and reclaiming not just our minds, but our technology as well. Yeah. So

Tim Houlihan  1:45  
if you've ever felt guilty about binge watching Netflix, beating yourself up for scrolling social media, raise Yeah. Thank you for raising your hand. Okay, and wondered if there's a middle path between tech addiction and digital monasticism.

Kurt Nelson  2:00  
This conversation is for you, that was a big word, monasticism, like any digital monasticism. You like that? Yeah. And by the way, this was a conversation that Tim had with Jay because I wasn't available at the time we recorded this. And I can't say words, big words like monasticism and different things like that. Don't even know what they mean, so you'll just have to make do with Tim's questions, knowing that they're really big and use big words and that all the really great, insightful questions were left out because I wasn't there. Oh,

Tim Houlihan  2:34  
look, Jay, turns out to be this very musical guy. We had an excellent discussion about music,

Kurt Nelson  2:39  
and I rest my case, I'm gonna say so sit back with a strong pour of intentionality tea

Tim Houlihan  2:50  
and enjoy our conversation With David yarty.

Tim Houlihan  2:59  
David yarthy, welcome to behavioral grooves. Nice to be here. It is so good to have you on the show like we've had these chances to talk offline, and now it's really great to have this as a recorded conversation. We've got a couple of important questions to get out of the way. And of course, we want to know coffee or tea,

Jay Vidyarthi  3:20  
coffee now, but tea sometimes, okay, it's a seasons of life thing.

Tim Houlihan  3:26  
Oh, so it's like years at a time. Not this. It's not like coffee in the morning, tea in the afternoon.

Jay Vidyarthi  3:33  
It's on a roughly annual schedule at this point, like last year, I was doing a lot of morning tea, and then I've been doing more coffee this year. And actually, this year, I started drinking my coffee more at like, 10 or 11 and not first thing when I wake up. Oh, because I was, like, managing kind of an energy drop around, like two or three. And so, you know, practicing a lot of self awareness of, you know, the psychoactive substance we all drink every day, caffeine.

Tim Houlihan  4:01  
And is it working?

Jay Vidyarthi  4:03  
Yeah, it is. It's working a lot. Yeah, it's like, okay, I do. I really, I really enjoy getting the boost over lunch time and not really, kind of falling off the energy Cliff till later.

Tim Houlihan  4:18  
There's, there is that isn't there. There is, really, is, yeah, yeah. Okay, that's great. Okay, second speed, round question, would you rather learn a new instrument or a new language?

Jay Vidyarthi  4:30  
A new instrument, for sure. I mean, I'm a musician, and you know, guitar is actually, it's a funny story. My guitar is like my heart and soul. I love playing guitar, and I'm self taught, so I'm not even that great at it, but I can feel it. And over the pandemic, I decided to try to learn some piano, because I think I was like wrestling with my guitar a little bit. And there was something so liberating about being bad at it, because I've just been playing guitar so much that I like I noticed that I demand so much of myself from the guitar. Are, and there was something liberating about playing piano and having permission to be like, I don't know how to play this, and so it might sound bad, and that's okay, right?

Tim Houlihan  5:09  
Or that that lovely experimentation and innovation that comes from I don't know what I'm doing, and I might stumble on something that I like, and, oh, wasn't planning on that. That beginner's mentality is kind of kind of cool, absolutely.

Jay Vidyarthi  5:23  
And that's actually what you said, is totally what happened. Like, I sort of stumbled on, like, stride bluesy piano. And I think it was like inheriting some of my sensibilities from guitar. And like, you know, I, when I picked up the instrument, I was like, I'm gonna learn some Beatles songs, and I'm gonna, you know what I mean, but I ended up just noodling around with kind of blue scales, and it found it super fun. And then at some point I learned like music from video games from my childhood, which was also super like, I don't know, like, what's interesting about video game music is like, especially in role playing games, you might spend like, 40 or 50 hours wandering this virtual world, listening to the music, like, hanging out in the inn where there's no battles and and now, like, I hear the in music from, like, Final Fantasy, and it like calms me down. I'm like, oh, there's no threats. I'm okay, wow,

Unknown Speaker  6:17  
wow.

Tim Houlihan  6:18  
In okay, this we're gonna get, we're gonna have to get more into the relationship between the virtual world and the real world coming up. Okay, that's why, that's why we're here. Yeah, exactly. Third Speed Round question, excuse me, is it possible to enjoy screen time without guilt?

Jay Vidyarthi  6:38  
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I would say it's, it's not just possible. I mean, I would, I would encourage it.

Tim Houlihan  6:47  
Yeah, okay. Well, on a similar vein, is it possible to enjoy binge watching TV shows

Jay Vidyarthi  6:53  
mindfully? One thing that is inherent in that question is the dripping shame of the word binge,

Unknown Speaker  7:00  
yes, yes. So

Jay Vidyarthi  7:03  
if you took the word binge out of that question, I would say, yes, it is possible to watch TV mindfully. I would say, if you're talking about binge watching TV, I mean, I think the language we use matters, and yeah, right away in the framing of the question, you're diminishing your ability, not removing, but diminishing your ability to be mindful, because you're already criticizing yourself.

Unknown Speaker  7:27  
So

Tim Houlihan  7:30  
that's that's a we have to get into that I do want to just pull back just a bit to get to the title of your book, is reclaim your mind. And so I want to just start by asking, have we sort of lost agency, or lost our connection with maybe the most important bodily asset that we have, that we have to reclaim it?

Jay Vidyarthi  7:51  
I would say yes, but not entirely. I think we always have agency. Maybe we've lost touch with that agency. Okay, but here's the kind of rub. Is that, I think when most people hear that in modern society, the first interpretation is they took it from us, right? Is that, like, we lost? They took our agency from us? Yeah, and I reject that outright, okay, like, like, don't get me wrong, there are some real challenges with tech today. There are some design patterns that are manipulative. There is an attention economy that's trying to harvest attention for profit. We need scientists who are starting to understand the impacts of these technologies, which is still in debate, as far as I understand, right? You know, regulators are starting to think about it. There's like conversation about banning tech for kids. All of this needs to happen. We need to explore these questions. But I think what has happened in the kind of public narrative about this is individuals have forgot that they still have agency that you know, maybe it's not easy to manage your relationship with technology, but it's absolutely important to do, and this is an issue that shows up in bedrooms and in kitchens and in boardrooms and in hospital rooms and in pubs and in schools, where in these little micro, mundane moments of our lives, the more that we can find and reclaim Our agency of how we interact with these technologies and how we intentionally choose to place our attention. We can reclaim that agency in every moment. And I think there's a public narrative that makes people feel powerless, like victims of forces larger than themselves, and that we all have to kind of hold our breath and wait for regulators and tech companies and scientists to come save us. We need that work to happen. But you know, there's a lot we can do in our own lives and in our kids lives to restore that agency.

Tim Houlihan  9:50  
Yeah, what? Why is that? Why do you think we Why do you think we have sort of lost that sense of, I can control tech? What? Or. Maybe the counter is, why is it that so many of us feel like tech is controlling us?

Jay Vidyarthi  10:07  
I think it's confusing. I mean, I think, you know, one of the reasons I wrote the book was I was just kind of looking around in my life like I work in tech. I'm a designer. I run a company, and we design

Tim Houlihan  10:18  
technologies, right? You're not, you're not an anti tech, you know, flag raiser, that's right.

Jay Vidyarthi  10:24  
I also grew up playing video games and, like, tinkering with code and like, this is, you know, this is kind of my world. In my early 20s, I felt a little meaningless, and started to find the meditative path, which is sort of like my parents are from India. It's not an exotic, esoteric thing for us. It's more of like a family heirloom, but it's one that I basically rolled my eyes at as a kid.

Tim Houlihan  10:47  
Don't we roll our eyes like, Yeah, our parents

Jay Vidyarthi  10:49  
are concerned, right? Yeah, but you know, so then I ended up in my 20s, kind of stuck between these two worlds, where I was, you know, wanting to go on silent retreats and like I would feel very fearful to tell everyone that I love the Legend of Zelda on a meditation retreat. But then, meanwhile, I'm in these tech circles, especially, you know, 1015, years ago, where, you know, it's a grind set, hustle culture and like the idea that I'm gonna, you know, if I told everyone, hey, I'm going to take a week to go to Cabo and I'm going to get messed up and I'm going to party all weekend. I'll see you guys in a week. Everyone be like, great. Have a good vacation. But if I told them I'm going to take a week to go to a mountain and sit still and close my eyes and pay close attention to the subtleties of experience and see if I can draw insight and self knowledge that might transform my life and my understanding of myself and others as spiritual beings, they would look at me like I was like, What are you talking about,

Tim Houlihan  11:48  
right, right? Culturally, you were so, so you had to reconcile these two sides of you to some degree, right? Yeah. How did you do it? In your 20s? You right? You started to combat this,

Jay Vidyarthi  12:02  
yeah, painstakingly, I mean, but I think, you know, with a science education, I had an attitude of experimentation. And, you know, my dad has a PhD in chemistry, and, like, basically raised my brother, and I like to debate things scientifically. So it's just an experimentation mentality. And so I started trying things and questioning the two dominant narratives, which goes back to your previous question, why? Why are people like kind of having this confused relationship with technology? It's, you know, I look around and I see that confusion because it is full of hypocrisy and oxymorons, right? Like, Oh, I love technology. I connect with my family and friends on all these platforms, and it's so nice. But also I'm addicted. I'm binge watching, like, these heavy words, and, you know, it's ruining our lives. You know, it's like, wow, we have this global conversation about public events, yet it's polarizing us and destroying democracy and like there's just all this stuff that's happening that feels so big and contradictory that we're all feeling super confused. And for me personally, in my 20s, the two dominant narratives was either I was going to be a tech guy, right, yeah, or I was going to be like, a mindfulness guy, and that there was no way to be both. And I just started to question those assumptions, because I was like, the more I looked in the mirror, I was like, but I am both. So what? How do I show up in the world in this way? And so I started to ask questions like the one you asked earlier, like, Can I watch TV mindfully? How do I set how do I identify where the traps are with technology and deal with that in a, you know, in a mindful, intentional way. But also, how do I not lose the joy and fascination that I've always had with technology, and so I've been wrestling with those tensions for my entire adult life. Basically,

Tim Houlihan  13:53  
yeah, you, you've, you sort of reject the idea that there's just a big pendulum and we're either on one side or the other, right? And but you, I think you make the case that there is a happy medium, that there is a stable Middle Ground for the human condition.

Jay Vidyarthi  14:08  
It's funny, you use the metaphor of a pendulum, because I would say that, yes, there is a there is a middle, but the pendulum will swing. And part of finding that middle is embracing its swing. And that's something I definitely like is a hard one insight from my own pendulum of recognizing that, like, what was the problem? Was it technology, or was it that, in a season of life where I used a lot of technology, I beat myself up about it, and then when I went off on retreats, I felt like disconnected and like a lot of FOMO and I missed my video games. So what did I do? I beat myself. I beat myself up about it again. And so here I am just beating myself up about it all the time. Yeah? And I was like, I need to embrace that swing to find the middle, right?

Tim Houlihan  14:53  
So in your path, how did you how did you find the

Jay Vidyarthi  14:57  
middle? Yeah. Well, it's like I said. I've been gradually, kind of trying to discern strategies in different areas of technology, but a big part of it was scaling up on awareness and insight. So the meditative path has been a big part of my journey, from, you know, long term retreats to daily practice to working with teachers to trying to understand how technology can support and the science is getting pretty clear that some of these faculties are skills that can be trained, which is counterintuitive. I think people have heard of like neuroplasticity. We know at this point right that our brain can change, but something like awareness or the ability to intentionally choose where to place your attention, like your vector of attention within this mysterious field of awareness that defines our lives, right? Like seems like, first of all, the backdrop of our lives that most people probably don't even think about. But then the more you look at it, you're like, actually, our entire lives are simply a series of moments of attention placed within a field of awareness like it literally is the fundamental grounding of our life experience. But then even more of a surprising stretch for people like when you guide them in meditation, is the recognition that not only do I seem to not have control of this attention, like my mind just flits all over the place. But with more practice, I actually can skill up in the ability to be more intentional about where I place this attention and even more counter intuitively, like we're going. Layers up here is that I can't force it, though it's almost like trying to lead a child or a puppy, like you can't just, like, force it like a cat would be a really great example. I have two cats and it's like, I can't just be like, Hey, Kitty, can you go to the other room? Now, like, no, that's not how cats work. But you can influence cats, if you're skillful and your mind is like a cat in a way, like you can, you can actually gently, lovingly guide your awareness and notice its patterns and learn insights about yourself and how your context affects it, and all of that is something I could be saying about mindfulness in general, but it does also apply to our interactions with technology. We can pay very close attention to our relationship to technology and make very skillful adjustments that don't require a ton of work and willpower to heal our relationship with it.

Tim Houlihan  17:25  
So you're optimistic about the role of tech in our lives, you actually believe that it does we don't have to be tech doesn't have to be the dog that's wagging us on the tail.

Jay Vidyarthi  17:38  
I don't think so. My optimism comes in our potential to harness that. The question becomes like, how do we learn to do that? How do we learn to do that at scale? How do we better manage our technology to make it easier to do that? Because the reality is, like, I could, you know, I'm in San Francisco this week, and like, I could go on the sidewalk and talk to anyone, and they will know for sure that exercise and eating healthy is good for you, but knowledge is not, yeah, knowledge is not always enough. So the question becomes, like, the first step is embracing what we talked about earlier, that we do have agency in this. Yeah. But then now there are some layered questions about, okay, well, how do we actually, you know, behavior change and all these elements that might be relevant? Well,

Tim Houlihan  18:29  
let's talk about what, what are, what are some of the things that, as you said, awareness, in general, of the problem is abundant. Let's talk about some of the sort of practical applications for what we can do, because this is not just, and it's not just, I mean talking about setting your phone aside, or how you use a mindfulness app, I think we should talk about that. But underneath all that, of course, is dealing with the guilt and shame and the framing of just the way that I frame that question about binge watching your favorite TV show like that is just so ever present. So I'm that's a big universe of questions and there, where do you want to where would you want to start?

Jay Vidyarthi  19:15  
Well, the first strategy in the book is start with awareness. And you mentioned awareness of like the problem space and the situation, but I actually think there's an intimate awareness of your own relationship with technology, like you can you and the listeners and everyone have all heard a million tech strategies like little ideas like tips and tricks. Hey, get your phone out of your bedroom, disable your notifications, whatever have you right? But which tips to apply to your life is deeply dependent on your intimate awareness of your own patterns, and I think that's where you start. Like, when I'm working with someone on this, the first thing is, let's take a day or even a week to just watch closely. Like, which. Technologies tend to trap you. Which ones do you get joy from which ones do you get meaning and purpose? From which ones do you find authentic connection? Which one brings in authentic connection? Which technology sends you ruminating for hours? Hint, hand work, email, right? Which technology like can you almost use without friction, that you can enjoy and move on from. And what you'll find is that, yes, you probably fit into some of the general narratives, but there's probably some unique elements about your personal relationship with technology which are most likely related to who you are and your life experience and what your deeper emotional needs might be in this moment, like, if you're lonely and isolated, you are higher at risk of social media trapping you into a vicious cycle. But if you've got, like, a beautiful social life in the world, and you're having dinner parties and things, social media is probably just a joyful addition to your life, right? And the same could be said about video games and work email and you know? So I think when we get into strategies like seeing through the illusions of these technologies that can trap us, yes, setting up our physical and virtual environments to reduce the burden on our willpower. But if we go deeper layer, like, what is the healthy emotional need this part inside of me, right? That's trying to take care of me in this moment, and I'm not hating that part. I'm loving that part, I'm loving that part. I understand like thank you for trying to take care of me by by recognizing that I'm lonely and trying to trying to find connection online. But I don't think the connection online is fully satisfying me right now. So we need to find another way to find connection right now. And what what you'll find in that moment is, not only does that address the deeper need, and you end up finding a deeper connection in some other way. But then you can kind of go on social media and it won't trap you anymore, because you've addressed the deeper need, right? Yeah,

Tim Houlihan  21:50  
so you're, you know, and when we were reading the book, it just hit me so hard that you kind of have to do the work yourself, you know, it's, it's not like the five easy steps to just becoming a billionaire, you know, if you just, if you just do this, you know, and, and I really appreciate that. I really appreciate that about the way that you approached, approach the book, and because you're also so we have to start with our personal setup, our context, right? From there, from there, from awareness, where do we go next?

Jay Vidyarthi  22:29  
So one thing that comes to mind immediately is boundaries, right? So I think in the context of this, we've all, at some point, had the experience of trying to set a boundary, like I'm only gonna use this app for 30 minutes a day, or I'm only gonna check work email on my laptop and not my phone, or I'm gonna not let my phone in my bedroom, or I'm not gonna watch too much TV.

Tim Houlihan  22:56  
These sound like things that are easily broken, yeah, yeah, and

Jay Vidyarthi  23:01  
they are. They're broken constantly. But I think one of the ways that people immediately frame this again is with this valence that tech is bad. It's like this toxin that we need to set boundaries on because we need to protect ourselves from the evils they're afraid. It's fear. It's fear that's right? And that leads to, when we break the boundary, the guilt, right? You're just like, you know, quietly sneaking, looking at your phone and feeling bad about it, right? Or, like, I, you know, mentioned earlier, like, melting down on your kids because they love video games, right? Like, just, you know, I there's obviously a lot of complexity in raising kids with technology which we can get to but I'm almost certain that shame is not the way for forward. Yeah, you know what I mean, and, and so I think there's something about the boundaries where we're losing the joy and the positivity that's possible. So one of the things that I recommend is, when you set a boundary, you should also like. When you're reflecting on something that's problematic in your life, you find a technology that I'm stuck on video games, or I'm stuck on work email or whatever it might be to also identify what you love about that technology and try to set a boundary in a way where you are simultaneously limiting the trap while emphasizing what you love about it. And in the book, I reframe the boundary to use the word ritual, and that brings a lot more positivity to it. So I'll give you an example from from my life, which is I have a boundary slash ritual around TV, where I'll only watch one show a day, like, I don't want to just watch a lot more than one thing a day, right? And the ritual I have around it is that I'm gonna get, like, a tasty snack, and I'm gonna get a really good drink. You know, I worked at a movie theater as a teenager. I'm gonna channel that energy. I. Ah, like we used to get on Thursday nights. We used to get to, like, I remember, we got the the cans, the projector, cans of Gladiator, and we got to watch it before it was out. It was launched on the weekend, and we got him on Thursday. So, you know, we just, like, set it all up. And we had to test it, of course, so we just set up a little private screening. Wow. And it was magic, right? It was magic. And like, movies are incredible. We love stories. We love TV. It's like, the currency of the human mind is story, right? And yet we're in this feeling where it's like, every time we watch TV, we're feeling bad about it, like we're wasting our time. But TV's amazing. Sure, it can trap you, and maybe you shouldn't spend 12 hours a day watching it. But maybe you've had a rough patch and you're grieving and you just need 12 hours of TV today, and that's okay. But for me, the ritual is like, get a nice drink, put the distractions away very intentionally. Choose, like, where am I at today and do I really want to watch something profound? Like not mindlessly? Put it on, put the distractions away and enjoy it and then turn it off, right? And it's like, yes, there's a boundary, but there's a positive ritual to that I look forward to. And like, you know, really harkens back to my childhood, and it's just like an interconnected positive part of my life, as opposed to this. Just like whipping myself with this, I keep watching reality TV and I hate myself, like, that's not the way. Well,

Tim Houlihan  26:23  
it also I love that, because it also serves the ability to say when you're done, when you have watched that hour, that going into it with the mindset of this is what I want out of it. I want to connect with something. I want to just enjoy the hell out of that for an hour, and you have and you're done with that hour, then you've actually fulfilled something that you wanted to do, rather than just sort of drifting mindlessly in and out of the, you know, the harbor, and not really knowing if you're going out to the ocean or you're staying by the shore, you know, you get to you choose, and that that agency is magnificent, absolutely,

Jay Vidyarthi  27:07  
and the constraint breeds intention, because what I choose to watch, Yeah, feels so much more of an important choice when I'm only allowing myself to watch something and I can really enjoy that. And sometimes I've even done a little practice. My wife and I had this little game at some point where we would, you know, we noticed we were getting trapped into that ocean of rectangles where you're just, like, browsing all the things you could watch, and then 30 minutes have gone by and you're kind of like, tired and you can't make a decision. So we played this little game where we said we're gonna, like, go into the like display screen where you have options, and the first thing that we show even remotely any interest in, we're just gonna hit play immediately, like we're not gonna hesitate at all. And what the first time we did this experiment, we ended up watching a show that I would never have chosen to watch like it was called Indian Indian matchmaking. And it was this show of this woman who it's like a reality show where she's like, matchmaking Indian couples or whatever. Not only was it amazing and it was hilarious, my parents were from India. It was like a cultural reconnection. And I felt like, you know, my parents rebelled against arranged marriage and had kind of a love marriage, whereas a lot of their extended family had an arranged marriage. And I felt like I understood my parents better watching this show, and I never would have chosen to watch it, but like, I just, like, noticed this flit of interests, and I just followed that rule and hit play. And so that was like a fun little experiment, but I think it shows the way that I'm interacting with technology in daily life is this experimental way of like, how do I not only limit the traps, but find that joy again? Because I grew up with so much joy around technology and TV and video games, and a lot of us did, and I think that's one of the tragedies that like, I'm not only advocating for us to reclaim our minds, but to reclaim our tech too, right?

Tim Houlihan  29:05  
Yeah, and you work, I want to re revisit this and reinforce this idea you work in tech. It's you're, you're not an anti tech guy. But you also have talked about sort of fighting design with design like, like getting on the on the side of, let's be intentional in in the design. Could you? Could you talk a little bit about about that?

Jay Vidyarthi  29:30  
That's right. So I practice a form of design called Human Centered Design, and practically, it's often referred to as user experience. Academically, my education is in human computer interaction. Lots of jargon in this field,

Tim Houlihan  29:45  
human computer interaction, yes, okay,

Unknown Speaker  29:49  
okay, right. So it's like,

Tim Houlihan  29:50  
it seems so obvious, but it's also, yeah, yeah,

Jay Vidyarthi  29:55  
yeah. But if you, you know, if scientists study the way humans and computers interact. We can use that to draw conclusions and understand our interactions with technology, but also to design it better anyway. That all being said, I was attracted to human centered design because of the heart of it. It was really about care. It was about when we create things and put them in the world. Let's understand who we're creating for in their context and try to be of service. But the tragic reality is the incentive structure of the world and of the tech economy. Most people trained in design and human centered design are being asked to manipulate people, to use the tools to understand people so we can better manipulate them, to buy, to click, to subscribe, to vote a certain way, to, you know what I mean, to think a certain way. And so there is a complexity in the design profession which I can get into, but, you know, I'll summarize it by saying, like, as a designer, kind of, with my professional hat on, like, in San Francisco this week, I'm at a conference where I led a workshop on like, you know, advocating for a North Star for the design profession, which is, like, we need to have a compass ourselves as a profession. Yeah, that is not necessary, like, because all the designers I know are, like, mystified by the fact that they have to just, like, try to get everyone to click the red button, as opposed to like, the promise of like being a person who creates meaningful solutions in the world, and so in reality, when you and everyone are confronting these technologies we have in our pockets and on our screens, we're confronting like an ocean of patterns and and choreography of attention That's intentionally created to guide us into certain purchasing decisions and voting behavior and other types of behavior change. And so one way that we can combat that in our daily lives is to think like a designer ourselves, like, Hmm, do I need a TV in this room? Or does it keep distracting me from my kids, right? Or one thing I do is like, I keep my smartphone tethered to the charger at home, and I don't shame myself for needing to use it, but when I need to use it, I need to walk over to my office and use it. So I can't just pull it out in front of my six year old and just be like, one sec, right? Bringing a lot of intention to the way we set up our physical environments can help release the burden on our willpower, thinking like a designer, but then also our virtual environments. What do we have access to on our home screen? What are some of the tools we can find online to limit the way we interact and to shape our relationship with technology in the moment? And the more we fight design with design, the more we're empowered, the more AI starts to change the game, the more we might be able to customize the way we interact with technology. And so I think there's a bright future in saying this isn't just about grinding it out and like trying to lock your phone in a safe and like, bang your head against the wall, that we can really be smart about shaping and designing our lives the way these designers are designing the technology. And then there's a whole track about the design as a profession needing to evolve in that as well.

Tim Houlihan  33:09  
Well. Are you concerned about AI doing your job without that kind of human centered lens?

Jay Vidyarthi  33:16  
Yes, absolutely. And I've been actually ramping down projects this month. I'm taking a little sabbatical this summer to reflect on that and a few other questions. But, you know, I've been playing around with, you know, there are design I have a design process with my company still ape, and there are AI tools for every step of that process, right? There's AI tools to help with discovery and synthesis AI tools to create user interfaces. There's even AI moderators for research. Like you can set up a platform like list a bunch of questions and it's just going to go out and run 15 minute calls with people, and the robot is going to ask these questions, collect the data, analyze the data and give you like, here are the themes of the research, right? Like, wow, it's the platforms are getting insane. Now, here's the reality. I've played with these tools, and they're not very good. They don't do a good job, they don't capture contacts, they don't capture

Tim Houlihan  34:17  
nuance, but at the same time, they're getting better, right? They're getting

Jay Vidyarthi  34:22  
exactly right at the same time, they're getting better. And already, as someone who runs a design studio, when I'm talking to potential prospective clients, they're all asking, like, why should I pay you to do this? It seems like there's tools to do it. Yeah. And so one of the big questions I'm asking is, like, I feel confident, like that the heart of this is actually going to be more valuable. Like, I have been fighting against the grain as a designer for a lot of my career to try to take a heart centered approach, of like, we actually care about the people we're designing for, but I actually think that's going to become like, rarer and more important, because that's something that. Robots can't do and, you know, we can program them. That's like the alignment problem with AI. But there is a real challenge, I think, in, you know, the future of how we create things, because it's going to be very tricky. I mean, I can summarize that by by saying, you know, the social media era taught us the pitfalls of training powerful technology to narrow incentives. Yeah, right. Like the news feed was like, we're just going to show you what you are most likely to click on. And then 10 years later, Zuck is testifying to Congress, and he's like, Oops, I broke democracy, guys. I don't know what happened, but I was just trying to meet girls at Harvard, and I made a Facebook, and I accidentally broke democracy,

Tim Houlihan  35:44  
right? But we created that. We collectively created all that

Jay Vidyarthi  35:48  
that's exactly right. Like this is a manifestation of the human mind and our society mapped onto the way we're using technology. And technology doesn't have to be used in this way. And so that's my worry about. AI is like, if we keep going with this narrow incentive structure, as the technology gets more powerful, it's, you know, it's not going to work. It's going to cause problems. So another way to say this might be like, you know, going back to my own personal journey with this and as a mindfulness practitioner, and seeing all the other wellness and mindfulness people telling us to,

Tim Houlihan  36:23  
and I'd even say a mindfulness activist, yes,

Jay Vidyarthi  36:27  
that's right, exactly as an attention activist, you know, seeing all of the people in the wellness space say, like, technology is bad and it's ruining our lives, and we should, you know, get away from it. You know, ironically, posting that on social media, right? It's like, you know, here's a video of me in a white dress in the forest in, like, digital detox, you know, it's like, click like and subscribe, yeah? But you know, the height of irony, yeah, yes, of course. And so, you know, when I see that, and I think about the next step. I am very convinced that for this new evolution of technology, there's nothing we need more than like wise people to engage with technology. Because what happens if the wisest of us choose not to engage with technology? We're already seeing it like if the most conscientious, empathic, compassionate people are like, ooh, this technology is not for me. Then all the majority of people are on the technological platforms with no wise people to guide them. And then similarly, with the companies, if there's no wise people who are trying to guide the incentive structures of those companies, where does that leave us? So I feel like a to use the word activist that you brought in here, like, I feel a call to action, to say, like, to all of my fellow people who care about their mental health and well being and, you know, even potentially spiritual people, this is the time to lean into technology. It's it's much needed. It's not going away. So it kind of behooves all of us to make sure it's as wise as possible. Yeah,

Tim Houlihan  38:03  
you that's beautifully said. Jay, thank you. I love that. Yeah, bravo.

Kurt Nelson  38:12  
Hey, grooves, quick break from the conversation to talk about something we don't bring up enough on the

Tim Houlihan  38:17  
show. Yeah, that's right. When we're not behind the mic. We're working with organizations to apply behavioral science in ways that actually move the needle for leaders, teams and whole cultures.

Kurt Nelson  38:29  
So whether it's designing smarter incentives, boosting engagement, setting goals that actually stick, or helping teams navigate change, we bring real science to real workplace challenges.

Tim Houlihan  38:41  
And we don't just talk theory, our approach blends research backed insights with hands on strategies that drive results. And we've seen small behavioral shifts lead to big wins in Fortune 500 companies and scrappy startups, and even in mission driven nonprofits,

Kurt Nelson  38:58  
yeah, and we bring the same curiosity, creativity and care to our client work that we bring to every episode of the show. Billy, I think

Tim Houlihan  39:06  
people might want more than what we bring to the show.

Kurt Nelson  39:12  
You probably have a point there. You're probably right.

Tim Houlihan  39:15  
Okay, so we'll bring more care and creativity to our work with you and your teams than what we do on the show. Yes,

Kurt Nelson  39:22  
more care. So. So if you're ready to build stronger motivation, better team dynamics, and maybe even make your workplace a little more groovy, yeah,

Tim Houlihan  39:32  
reach out to us. Grab us on LinkedIn or Facebook, or just drop us a line. We'd love to help you and your team find your groove. You You Are you aren't, if you are certainly a mindfulness activist, but you are also self awareness is not just an early part of the book, it's self awareness is foundational in your life, right? Yes. So. So you just mentioned briefly that you're winding some stuff down and you're going to take a little mini sabbatical. I'm curious. On this show, we talk a lot about finding your groove, and you actually brought up the the term going from a grind into something better. Kurt and I often compare being in a groove to either being in a grind or being in a rut, and the groove is sort of that, that sweet spot in the middle. What role does does self awareness play in finding your groove and staying in your groove? Do you think

Jay Vidyarthi  40:38  
it's a really important question for me right now. Three or four weeks ago, I was, you know, working, my son is struggling with school. And, you know, I had, it was the second day in a row, we're having a big fight in the morning to try to get him to go to school right. And I was tired. A lot of projects were coming to a head, and, you know, I was pushing him and getting really frustrated. And like, you know, eventually we got him off to school and I went back, and I kind of like, took a quick bite to eat, and then I like, sat down at my desk, and I like, looked at my calendar packed with meetings and my email inbox overflowing. And like, glanced at a few and they were like problems that needed to be solved. And like, you know, I used to help my team, and after the two to three hour battle with my son, I was like, I'm already done for the day, and I have like, eight to 10 hours of intense work that I need to do. And I felt, you know, easily, a moment that a younger version of me would have just collapsed. But with self awareness, I noticed that right, I know I was like I noticed in my body, I noticed this tension, you might even say, like I looked at the horizon and I noticed the looming burnout, right? And a younger version of me would not have noticed that, and would have driven right into that sun,

Tim Houlihan  42:08  
right, and just burned right out, yeah, like,

Jay Vidyarthi  42:10  
off the cliff into the flames of the sun, right?

Tim Houlihan  42:14  
And I'm envisioning a film in Louise moment here, that's right, and

Jay Vidyarthi  42:19  
maybe even a month later, when I'm just like, I don't know who knows, self medicating or whatever I might have been doing. Wait a minute, what happened? But this time, I mean, I think I saw it four weeks early, and I said, Oh, stuff's going on at home. Stuff's going on at work. You know, I this is around the time I'm researching these AI tools. And you can only imagine, I'm sure many of your listeners can relate how it feels to be like in a job, or, in my case, an entrepreneur, and just like watching AI tools pop up that just do your job, yeah, and being like, Okay, well, I don't think this is going to replace me, but I'm obviously going to have to, like, redefine everything to figure out how to surf these waves

Tim Houlihan  43:02  
at the very least. And so disconcerting. It's, yeah,

Jay Vidyarthi  43:05  
exactly, that's right. And I mean, as I say, the very least, it's like, okay, well, I need to, like, pivot and reframe. Like, there's a bunch of new work I need to do now at the very least. And also, like, you know, when you have a team, you're like, what does this mean for my team? Like, do I have to let go of some of my team, because it just doesn't make financial sense, because people won't pay and who knows, right? Anyway, lots going on. But this time I saw that on the horizon and I took the off ramp on the highway. I was just like, Okay, here's the plan. I talked to my wife about it, and I was like, we are just toning down. And, you know, sending emails to cancel projects and unwinding things and just saying we have some big questions at that point, even, like, the questions were murky. Now I'm getting more clarity. But like, somewhere in here, there's a lot of uncertainty that needs to be addressed, and so I've been kind of ramping things down. And what's really interesting about it too, is like, you know, when I was younger, I, you know, I was a musician, I was creative, I was interested in science and research, like, I went to grad school and loved, like, tinkering. And when I started to get in this field, I really had this like compass that was, like, you know, you can have a positive impact on people's well being. And so I created a part of myself, which you might call, like the entrepreneur part. And that's not like a core part of my being, like I wasn't one of those kids who's like, 12 years old at the lemonade stand, like, I'm gonna be entrepreneur, you know, like at all.

Unknown Speaker  44:39  
That was not me at all.

Jay Vidyarthi  44:40  
So I created this part. Out of necessity, and this part has been taking care of me and helping me run this business. And as I start to unwind it, it's very upset at me, like the feelings that I have when I'm like, sending an email to a paying client and being like, I don't think I'm going to be available this summer. They. Part of me is like its whole job has been to keep the projects coming and keep them stacked and keep the team busy, right? And what's really been interesting about this transition is like recognizing, you know, there's a kind of therapeutic modality called internal family systems, where you look at this like internal parts of yourself, and recognizing, like this part is part of me. It's trying to take care of me. And it's like, I don't dislike this part, I love this part, but it's like, this is the part that's gonna lead me into the sun, and this is the part I need to, like, put on a shelf for a moment as I reconsider and like, focus on rest and rekindling some depth in my practice, and like, spending time with family and that kind of self awareness, to go back to your original question, you know, I have learned from teachers, I've learned from practices, I've learned from experience that I can, very clearly in this moment, see my mid 20s burnout in comparison to this situation, and I take a lot of solace in that spiritual maturity it takes. And I'm like something about what I've been practicing and learning is really

Tim Houlihan  46:04  
paying off. Here, you said something that was really interesting in in describing this acknowledgement and awareness of what the problem is, you talked about uncertainty, and you acknowledge that there are a lot of things that you haven't figured out. It's not like you woke up one morning, had this realization and instantly had a complete plan in your mind with with the 40 steps that you were to go, to take to make that happen. Can you just talk a little bit more about that? I think that, and the reason that I'm asking is because I think a lot of us feel like I can't take that step to say no, or I can't take that step to choose that new professional career path, because I don't know what all of the steps are. I'm nervous. I'm anxious about not knowing what all the steps are going to be to get there, or whether or not I'll be successful. Yet you've embraced that uncertainty.

Jay Vidyarthi  47:00  
There's no way new seeds can sprout if you don't clear space in your garden. And there's no way to like grind, you know, to use your grinding language. There's no way to like grind out gardening. Like culture and gardening don't work like you have to be kind of patient. And I think there's like, in some ways, life is a lot like gardening, and like parenting is like gardening, and like managing yourself is a lot like gardening. And so, you know, how does now? How does one clear their garden to create room for new seeds to grow, given the level of fear and discomfort that we have with uncertainty. Well, the logical conclusion is to become comfortable with uncertainty, and that might be a very beautiful definition for meditation, is to become comfortable with uncertainty. One of my teachers often points out that, like, the human mind is like, ravenous for answers and comfort. We feel safe when we we know, and we feel safe when we're comfortable and feeling pleasure and but that's not the same thing as, like, lasting fulfillment that there is, you know, a way to explore being happy independent of external conditions, TO USE his language, a great teacher, Shinzen Young, I saw him yesterday, actually, at this thing in San Francisco, and like, Yeah, is it possible to be happy independent of conditions? And that's a skill, and I think a huge pillar of that skill is being comfortable with uncertainty. And if I can put a microcosmic layer on that, I think a lot of us are kind of like going throughout our lives safe in our concepts, like this is who I am. This is who you are. This is how the world works. And the more we believe that, the more we feel safe. And I think we've all had the experience where something or someone questions one of our core concepts and questions, and we can have big emotional reactions to that, because it's almost like someone is shaking one of the pillars holding up your chair, and you're, like, about to fall because they're shaking something like, oh, you know, maybe it's not all about, like, work hard and be successful. Like, that's an example of a concept that I think a lot of people work with. And I think, you know, this is a big disconnect between Boomers and Gen Z, where boomers are, like, you know, why? Why are Gen Z so lazy? Like, work hard and be successful, and Gen Z are, like, that's not the world we live in anymore. Like, you know, we're all in student debt and there's no job opportunities and the housing market is out of control. Your equation was great for you because you wrote an upswing of the market, but we're not in that so that, you know, and so there's a lot of disconnect. Between those two generations, for example. So I think being comfortable with uncertainty, if I had to digest, like, what is the secret to happiness? I don't know what the answer to that question is, but if I had to, like, put my chips on the table, okay, it would be learning to befriend discomfort and uncertainty. That would be the that would be the key.

Tim Houlihan  50:22  
That is fantastic. Jay, thank you for that. What where would you put your chips on the table? If you had to pick two musical artists to take with you on a desert island for a year? You knew this when you knew this question was coming.

Jay Vidyarthi  50:39  
I love this pivot. I think I would have to say the white stripes for sure, yeah, and

Tim Houlihan  50:46  
not just, not just judges,

Jay Vidyarthi  50:48  
not no, definitely, not just jack. I mean, I love Jack because of the white stripes. But actually, we can get into it if you

Tim Houlihan  50:54  
want. I tell me more about this. What it's interesting, because I think a lot of people think about, sort of, the the the sort of the brutal creative drive behind The White Stripes is Jack. So like, if you pick Jack, you get white stripes and all the other projects he's done, but, but you name the white stripes first, I think that's really

Jay Vidyarthi  51:15  
interesting. Well, speaking of, speaking of ideas that can shake people's fundamental assumptions in an uncomfortable way. I think Meg White is one of the best drummers that's ever lived. There you go, Okay, now, here's why. Here's why. Okay, first of all, because I think the White Stripes sound better than any of Jack White's solo stuff. And I've thought about this a lot because they're one of my favorite bands. But I've, I'm a musician. I've played with lots of drummers. I've played the drums in a band. I've, you know what I mean, right, right? I have never, ever, ever played with a drummer who is so selfless, whose entire reason to be on the stage is to simply do the bare minimum of what's needed to make this song great without even a drum fill, like she never plays a drum fill ever, right? And Jack White is a prolific songwriter, and like creative genius, and his fingers are lightning, and his his tones are incredibly unique. But when he lost Meg white, in my opinion, I love a lot of people love his solo music, but in my opinion, it kind of went off the rails and all over the place. And I'm sure he's having fun, and I'm so grateful for the music of the white stripes that I hope he's having fun, and I encourage him to continue having fun, because, like, he deserves it. But musically, like, from an art perspective, the white stripes are a yin yang counterpoint of that, like generative, powerful creative energy with selflessness, that is just absolutely beautiful. I could listen to it forever. I love that

Tim Houlihan  52:56  
because I recently saw an interview with Stuart Copeland, the drummer from the police, and he said, My job is to disrupt things, because all I do is bang on loud things. And so my my job is to disrupt and basically, you just said, Well, why? Why should the drummer be the disruption force in the band, and why not the rhythm section, like the selfless side of the rhythm section, I love that that's beautiful. I interrupted you before I heard the second artist that you'd take with you.

Jay Vidyarthi  53:26  
So I fell in love with the white stripes as it as like, around 20 and it like, became a huge motivation, and was definitely the band I listened to the most in my 20s. As I got older, the next band that I had this deep connection with is a band called all them witches. They're from American South. And, I mean, I don't know how to describe them other than like, they exist at the inter they exist seamlessly at the intersection of, like, all of my favorite genres. Like, there's an element of blues, there's an element of grunge and folk and metal. They're not afraid to get, like, heavy, wow, in like, an almost like a metal way. But then they have other songs that are, like, completely acoustic blues. And I've seen them live a couple of times. And just, I don't know, I mean, I think the context for me is, like, you know, when I was 20 and I was picking up these guitars and, like, trying to put bands together and going to a lot of concerts and, like, jumping into mosh pits. I wasn't very self aware. I was just doing what I was doing, right? I was like, pound a beer and go to the mosh pit and, like, fight people, right? It's just like, why would I do that? I but as you get older, you start to reflect, and you're like, Okay, so there's an element here about masculinity, there's an element here about like brotherhood, about like getting out there and like feeling your body in a way that society doesn't often allow men to just like hug and like, you know. So there's a piece of that. But once I was on a meditation retreat and we were about to go into a second. One week silent period, so sick, you know, meditating 1012, hours a day for seven days kind of thing. And I was trying to steal myself up for it. And so I sat in a meditation posture, and I put on this song called Orion by King buffalo, sort of like a grungy metal song has a big kick in and, like a like, you know, cosmic riff, it's like, just sounds like it's in the the size of the universe, basically, Wow, big Orion is, is the right name for it, anyway. So I sat in meditation and I listened to this song at like, full volume, and I felt like my nervous system was just activated, like I could feel goose bumps and I could feel waves of sensation, because I was like, tuned into that meditation space, and I felt like I got a glimpse of the seed of the thing that led me to do all of that when I was younger, something I didn't feel when I was 1819, I didn't actually notice directly, but for whatever reason, I was just mindlessly listening to this music and finding these things out. Yeah, and so there's something about like, all them witches that like it. I can reliably put all them witches on and just feel my nervous system light up with joy and pleasure and awe and like, what could be better than that? So I could listen to them forever on the desert island, and I would be there and I'd be like, I don't need food. I don't need anything. I'll just chill on this desert island and let my nervous system be a symphony of cosmic riffs.

Tim Houlihan  56:28  
Well, Jay, it i I'd like to observe that, because that just looks like the best desert island experience ever. And and I want to thank you, Jay, so much for being a guest on behavioral grooves today. Thanks

Jay Vidyarthi  56:44  
for having me. This is so much fun, and like I said, I've listened to a bunch of episodes of the podcast, so it's kind of great feeling to be here.

Kurt Nelson  56:59  
Welcome to our grooving session where Tim and I share ideas on what we learned from Tim's discussion with Jay, have a free flowing conversation and groove on whatever else comes into our tethered to the charger brains, yeah, yeah, we're. We

Tim Houlihan  57:13  
don't have to be tethered to the charger, but we are. But you've literally got your phone in your hand. I got it.

Kurt Nelson  57:22  
I got my phone on my head. Here we go. No, I got an email coming in. I got, yeah, whatever it is, but we don't need to scroll. There you go.

Tim Houlihan  57:30  
Yeah, it's it. I love Jay's principle. Idea of, it's not that we've given up our agencies. We fought, we haven't reclaimed it. We'd like, we've just kind of, we just need to live into the fact that we do make decisions as humans, and we can, yeah,

Kurt Nelson  57:48  
so, so I wasn't part of that conversation. I really wish I would have been. It was fantastic when I listened to it. So I'm going to basically just ask you some questions here this grooving session. So help us understand the context of all of this. Right? So we think that technology is bad, but that's not Jay's perspective. It's right, right? Help Help me understand that a little better. Help our listeners understand

Tim Houlihan  58:22  
that a little bit better. So he's a tech guy, right? He's an insider, and so he he doesn't believe the tech is inherently bad. There is some bad design, and that his idea is that we need to fight design, fight bad design with good design, and maybe more importantly, instead of trying to just overcome everything with more willpower, right? We've heard this many times from many guests. It's not about white knuckling your way through. It's not about just more willpower to make sure. It's actually about creating the environment in your life, redesigning your your physical and digital environments to to adequately support the kind of tech habits that you want to have.

Kurt Nelson  59:02  
Okay, so let's dig into that. So what were some of the key pieces of that that? And let's get back to this tethered to a charger piece, right? So what is that? What does that mean? Yeah,

Tim Houlihan  59:17  
well, we have talked about this a lot. Kurt that design is not a neutral thing. I think probably the first time that I became aware of it was in in thinking about being design architects or being behavioral architects, in Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein. Nudge, yeah, right. We're, we're always, regardless of what's happening in our world, there is some element of design. When we put stuff on a shelf, we're designing, we're and we can design behaviorally, and if we have some intentionality about that, we can, we can make better decisions. Jay related this when it comes to sort of the architecture of nudges towards addiction. Or attention. Like, what are we going to focus our attention on? Like, even, like, the way of organizing your phone, having the apps that are going to be the most seductive, the ones that get you into the most trouble, bury them, make them harder to get to, you know, just add that little bit of friction, just to make it more difficult to get there. And so it's not that you're saying I'm taking that app off my phone. I'm just saying I'm going to make it more difficult to get there. I

Kurt Nelson  1:00:30  
like the idea that the Tethered part, right? Keep your smartphone tethered to a charger cord. It's like, it's like our old phones, it's, I mean, it's like, next to the wall, yeah? And it just makes it so that it you don't have that mindless use of it so much, yes, right? Yeah, anything to add to that? Well, it's,

Tim Houlihan  1:00:57  
I think it gets into this revolving theme that that we talk about in behavioral science, about adding friction to the things that are bad and reducing friction on the things that are good. It's force field. It's it's behavioral judo, it's Kurt Lewin. It's like this. All of this stuff continues to come together, and Jay is applying it, and I think, in a really great way. So we need to but it but the premise is intentionality. We have to be aware. And in order to be aware, you have to kind of start tracking. Well, how much am I? How much time I buy, spending on that app?

Kurt Nelson  1:01:33  
Well, it goes back to what Daniel Crosby was saying, right track, where your time is being. Yes, do that for a couple weeks, and it will be eye opening for you as to, where am I spending time. And get it pretty detailed. It's that track your calories. And I love the tracking calories. I remember a story of this person who goes, Why can't I lose weight? All I'm drinking is coffee. And then the person who is like, going, Well, do you put cream and sugar in? Oh yeah, I put, like, a whole bunch of cream and a whole bunch of sugar, and I just drink coffee throughout the day. Well, you're getting a number of calories from that cream and sugar. That's why you're not losing that weight. And if we don't realize the cream and sugar that we're ingesting, you know, we're not going to be able to change those behaviors or to understand them in order to achieve

Tim Houlihan  1:02:30  
Yeah, Jay also had, he did have just this one thing that I thought was really interesting, the idea that sort of turns shame around this into maybe a strategy by recognizing your emotional needs, like, if you just have this desire to spend some time on what the Kardashians are wearing, indulge yourself and also limit it, like you might limit alcohol or drug Use. You know, I don't mean to be sound severe, but make an intentional limit. I'm only going to have one drink tonight. I'm not going to have any drinks tonight. I'm going to have, you know, I'm going to approach my social media consumption in a way that says I'm going to it. It's going to be, I'm going to save it for the end of the day. It's going to be an

Kurt Nelson  1:03:18  
indulgence. You tether it to a guy. So we talked to tether to the wire, but you tether it to some other activity that you're doing. It's almost like what Katie milkman talks about in, you know, tying in. I only get to watch this when I'm going and working out. I forget what that that's called. The idea, though, is, Hey, make sure that you're setting yourself up for this is something that I want to do, but in order to do that, I need to be doing something or setting a limit around where it is. There are also technologies out there that will limit how much time you spend on social media? Yes, you can. It'll like, Okay, your day limit is done. You've set this up in a cold state, in your rational, cold state, saying, hey, I want to make sure that I am not over indulging. So I'm going to put these limiters on my phone. And now when I'm in that hot space, hot state, scrolling through, oops, five minutes left, okay, I'm done with it for the day. That's Those are, those are ways to use technology to help

Tim Houlihan  1:04:32  
you. Yeah, anything else that you want to pepper me with questions about my conversation with Jay?

Kurt Nelson  1:04:38  
Yeah. How much music can two people talk about and still make it feel actually relevant? I don't know. He's a

Tim Houlihan  1:04:45  
lot, because he's just got these fantastic influences, you know, then, and things that that inspire him. And so it was just a lot of fun.

Kurt Nelson  1:04:58  
Should we wrap up? Yes. Yeah,

Tim Houlihan  1:05:01  
I think that the Jay showed us that the best way to resist the tech isn't about just opting out, but it's about sort of leaning in, but with intentionality. It's about fighting design with design. It's designing your own life in a way that allows you to deal with the designs in the apps. Basically, yeah,

Kurt Nelson  1:05:23  
so, so people design your own life by going out and joining the Facebook groove community. Because you'll not only get great tips and different things, but you'll get a daily groove question. You have a community of people who are out there helping you to understand how you can use technology better, various different pieces like that. So please go out there and intentionally design your life around the group community that we have. So

Tim Houlihan  1:05:58  
tether yourself or untether yourself from from the the the evils of tech, and tether yourself to your own agency and lean into fighting design with design, and use those this week as you go out and find your groove. You

Transcribed by https://otter.ai