Unknown Speaker 0:00 Kurt Nelson, Kurt Nelson 0:07 welcome to behavioral grooves. I'm Kurt Nelson, and I'm here virtually with my co host and co founder, Tim Houlihan. We're going on eight years together here at behavioral grooves. Do you believe that? Tim crazy, yes, yeah. And we have looked forward to every single conversation that we've had. There is no exception, no exception to that I at least not that I remember. And this one again, we are super excited about this conversation. We're diving deep into a discussion that might just change how you think about money, think about wealth and what it means to live a meaningful life. Tim Houlihan 0:47 Oh, that's right, Kurt, we had the pleasure of speaking again with Dr Daniel Crosby, the author of a new book, The soul of wealth, and he's also a good buddy of ours for many years now, Daniel isn't just another finance expert telling you how to get rich quick. This book is not a five step program, because Daniel realizes that real life is way more complex than five simple steps. He's a behavioral scientist specializing in behavioral finance who spent years studying the psychology behind our relationship with money. Kurt Nelson 1:19 Yeah, and Tim, what's fascinating about a conversation is Daniel's approach. He argues that wealth isn't just about the numbers in your bank account, boom, boom, right? Or even what that wealth could purchase, boom, boom. You know, wealth is something that he has, what he calls a soul. Now, this is not referring to some mystical or religious concept he use. He uses the word in a way of grounded in solid that's grounded in solid research, right? It's about human flourishing and what actually makes us happy, Tim Houlihan 1:54 right? Daniel shared some pretty eye opening insights about how we've essentially been sold a bill of goods when it comes to money, we've been told that wealth equals happiness, success, even moral superiority, but the data tells us a very different story. Despite unprecedented material prosperity, our society's general well being has actually declined. Kurt Nelson 2:15 Yeah, and when we explored Daniel's framework for understanding the four major psychological biases that trip us up with money, ego, emotion, attention and conservatism. But here's what I loved about Daniel's approach, that instead of fighting these biases, he shows us how to work with them. It's it's like this financial behavioral finance judo. I'm Kurt Nelson 2:47 glad I'm not a judo guy, because I look I look silly as hell. We Tim Houlihan 2:51 couldn't help ourselves, but we did have to talk to with Daniel about music, because he's a great guitarist, and this he has exquisite taste in guitars as well his first love of Radiohead and his appreciation for Brian Wilson, genius, super fun conversation. There's also just something about his creative mind that is just totally gravitational for me. So Kurt Nelson 3:12 All right, so listeners go and plug in your Stratocaster and turn the volume up all the way to 11 for a conversation that brings together behavioral science, personal finance, philosophy and yes even some great music and enjoy our conversation With Dr Daniel Crosby. Tim Houlihan 3:40 Daniel Crosby, welcome back to behavioral grooves. It's great to be back. It's such a pleasure to have you. It's really fun to see you. We're going to loosen up with a speed round. So first, first question, Stratocaster, or less ball, Daniel Crosby 3:55 oh, strat, Unknown Speaker 3:57 yes, yes. I'm so happy to hear Daniel Crosby 4:01 that we talked about this before my baby hands can't get around the baseball bat, knack of the Les Paul Now, clearly, from an esthetic perspective, the Les Paul is, to me, the prototypical look of a guitar like I like the Gretch. I like Les Paul shaped guitars, and I think that the Les Paul prototype was, you know, unearthed from some sacred space and came from the ground in its perfect form. Stratocaster is kind of ugly, but the strat plays better. How's that for? For balance? That was nice. Kurt Nelson 4:40 Tim, I didn't, I did not know that you were a Stratocaster guy. I didn't know that Tim Houlihan 4:46 I've owned Stratocasters in the past. I've owned Telecasters in the past. I've never, I've never owned a Les Paul, because every time I was playing with with friends who had them, and I'd put it over my shoulder. Or it felt like I was, I was putting a barge on, you know, like, you know, it's dragging a ship's anchor, and it was like, this isn't fun. Kurt Nelson 5:09 So basically, you're just weak. Is that? What it is, is that I think Tim Houlihan 5:12 that that's that might be it. It might it's just revealing about my physique that could be, Kurt Nelson 5:18 all right, all right. Well, I'm sure you guys, we could go off on a whole tangent on guitars, as you guys did pre show, and I was lost totally there. But let's keep going on the speed round. Daniel, would you rather live in a 35 year old body with a 95 year old mind, not man, and 95 year old body with a 35 year old mind. I'm sorry about that. Daniel Crosby 5:46 So I'm going to take the 35 year old body with a 95 year old mind. Now, how has senility set in? Are we allowed? I'm going to go 35 Kurt Nelson 5:56 you know it's it's one of those things you can do. You think you'll be good at 95 it's all up to you. Daniel Crosby 6:03 No, there's no way I'll be good at 95 so I'm gonna go 30 I'm gonna go 35 I'm gonna go 35 year old body, 95 year old mind, with the generous assumption that, you know, I've taken good care of my mind and that it's I have all the wisdom, all the wisdom, and none of the senility. Tim Houlihan 6:25 Fingers crossed. Yeah, Kurt Nelson 6:26 I was just thinking I would go with the 95 year old mind, because I would have the senility and I wouldn't care, and then I would just not 35 year old body being able to do whatever the hell like. Yes, you know, you Daniel Crosby 6:38 got this nice body and this who cares? Mine, just get off my lawn. Mine, yeah, it's a good combo. Tim Houlihan 6:46 Okay, third speed round question, Daniel, would you rather double your income or double your time off? Unknown Speaker 6:53 Oh, Daniel Crosby 6:54 I mean, double, double my time off? Not even, not even close. I mean, that's what my whole book is about, which brings us to the soul of wealth. No, but I would, I would definitely, I would definitely double my time off. I mean, I, I'm not sure why I was born an American. Every time I send, you know, my publisher is based in England, yeah, and this is about the time of year that I'll send my publisher something, looking for, looking for some help with something, and I'll get a note back saying they'll be back in six weeks. Because, yeah, and I'm like, It must be nice. You Kurt Nelson 7:33 can, you can move. You know, there is that possibility you could, you could relocate to Daniel Crosby 7:39 Europe. And I think about it all the time. Kurt Nelson 7:43 All right. All right. Daniel, last last of our speed round questions, true or false. Wealth is more about mindset, mindset than bank balance. So look at this. He's thinking. He's thinking, is this not an easy question is not a true or false. Daniel Crosby 8:01 So this is so when you look at the literature, we're going straight there. Okay, these things are actually one A and 1b I mean, when you even look at at at how wealthy people feel, or how contented they feel. There is a practical reality and a soul. Call it a soulful reality, and they are almost always neck and neck. So you think see things like when you look at how wealthy people feel, you see that the two best determinants of that in one study were how much money they had, that's the practical reality, and then how much money they gave away, that's sort of this soulful reality. In another study on contentment, it was how much money they had, and then what was their reference class. So who are they comparing themselves to? So it's like, which of these is the greatest commandment, right? I mean, it's like, there you have to love God and love your neighbor. They're both, they're both important. The greatest commandment is that there is a, there is a physical reality to wealth, and that there is a soul for reality to wealth, and you can't have the one without the other. So that's a cop out, but it's a, it's an evidence based cop out. Kurt Nelson 9:24 Okay, all right, so let's get into the book, right? Because we're talking about your new book, The soul of wealth, and you open the book with that strong claim that that wealth must have a soul. What do you mean by that? And, well, let's start with, What do you mean by that? What do you mean by a soul? How can wealth have a soul? Daniel Crosby 9:43 Well, you know, there's lots of lots of meanings for the word soul. I'm talking about the essence here. And for me, the essence of wealth is more than the dollars that you have in the bank. And there were two things that catalyzed me, right? Writing this book. One was I had sort of a health a health crisis that ended up being no big deal, but it was quite scary for a minute ended up being, no, I'm fine, but, you know, there was a moment there where I thought I wasn't, and that that brought some things into sharp relief, and then learning about sort of the mental health crisis that we have going on when, when this country was founded, you know, coming up on 250 years ago, 85% of the world was living in poverty. So that's, that's $2 or less a day, like everyone everywhere was poor to, you know, 200 200 years ago today, that number is about eight and a half percent, which is eight and a half percent too high. I don't want to minimize that, but, but like an incredible explosion in material wealth over 250 years, and you look at our well being over that same time, and it's gone to hell. You know, over that time, we've created such tremendous financial wealth. Our you know, our well being has fallen off a cliff. The average size of an American home has tripled in the post war period, and yet, people feel less wealthy than they were in the mid 40s. So, you know, so what gives? And it just became really apparent to me that money in and of itself, wealth, material, you know, material, safety in and of itself, was not enough, that there is a concurrent soulful reality to these things that needs to be addressed, or it just never quenches our thirst for more. Tim Houlihan 11:46 Yeah, there is this, this hedonic treadmill that we have, right, that we all live on to some degree and and we get challenged with this all the time, because we are bombarded by consumerism and we're bombarded by the social impact of the Keeping Up with the Joneses. These are, these are, these are big problems. What, I guess I'm kind of curious, what was it that sort of brought all this together for you? What was it like? This is the story that I want to tell. Daniel Crosby 12:17 Well, you know, there were, there were a few things. One, I mean, I really love money, like, more, more than I should, you know? I mean, I think about it. I work in Finance, I write books about money. And then when I had this health scare, there was a moment where my wife, my wife, was driving me to the hospital, and I'm bawling my eyes out in the front seat of her car, and I think I have a brain tumor, and I can't figure out what's wrong with me. And I'm, you know, catastrophizing that my children are going to grow up fatherless and all this. And at this moment, I said to her, I would give it all away to figure out what the hell is wrong with me. You know, like I would give it all away in that moment, this thing that I spend so much time worrying about was absolutely of no utility to me, and it was a big wake up call. And then the other thing is, like, I work. I work shoulder to shoulder with some enormously wealthy people, like, like, nine and 10 figures wealthy, right? But between our clients and you know, even some of my co workers in the recent past have been enormously wealthy, and some of them were really happy and really centered and doing incredible generous, kind, wonderful things with their wealth. And some of them, who are in the 99 point ninth percentile for wealth in human history and globally, felt like it wasn't enough, and were still sort of clawing for more. And it was wild to watch. And so, you know, it was a mix of observational stuff and personal stuff that led me to go, wow. You know, this isn't, this isn't everything. And unless there's this soulful element to it, it really just doesn't ever slake our thirst for more. Kurt Nelson 14:21 I think there's an interesting piece that you talked about there, that the contrast between it's not that people that are wealthy are all in this dystopian kind of world. You said, there are some that were just really happy and really had a good, good life for themselves, and yet there were these others. And yet, I think there is this to your point of placing so much emphasis on wealth. And I think our society has a over index on material things and money. And you can see it in social media. You can see it. And advertisements. You can see it in any type of media, just in general, right? What is it that we are getting excellent. Let me take this question back. Let me, let me, let me rephrase this. What can we do if we have all of these inputs coming at us that are saying, wealth is important. Wealth is, you know, you're only going to be happy when you get that bigger house. You're only going to be happy when you get that six figure, that that seven figure, that eight figure income. What? What can we do about that? I mean, it feels like it's just an over kind of pressing on us all the time. Daniel Crosby 15:41 Yeah, I think we need a new a new model, right? Because I think, you know, people would say, oh, money's not that important, but there's a reason why we over index on money, and it's because it's, it's it's easy to measure, it's easy to measure, like, it's easy to see, it's easy to measure, and we treat it like it's liquid happiness, and it's not so. You know, in the book, in the first chapter of the book, I introduce the readers to something you all will know well, which is Martin Seligman perma model, which is this model for sort of measuring human flourishing, and look like I don't have I think the perma model is great. I love it. I use it all the time. But, you know, there's other models too, and I candidly don't care which one you love, but like, that's a that's a good one, right? It talks about holism, and, you know, money's part of it, because money can buy us positive experiences, but hard work is part of it, and loving relationships and meaning and working for something bigger than yourself and personal growth. And so it's only when we have a new yardstick to measure life by, because for so many people, the only yardstick they have, the only tool they have for measuring the success of their life, is money. And look, money is a lot easier to gage than the love my wife and children have for me, right? I mean, I that's a little harder to put my finger on the on the pulse of that. But that doesn't mean it's not worth attending to or not worth measuring. So one thing that I think we need is to understand that this is the water that we're swimming in, right? I think a lot of people take this for granted and accept at face value, that money is everything you've been told it was. But look, 70% of the US economy is driven by consumerism. We are living in a world that has a vested interest in you caring about money and living above your means and prioritizing it, it literally is what makes our world go round. And if everyone read my book and and sort of applied it, the economy would crash, Kurt Nelson 17:58 which but again, we say that, like, it's a it's a bad thing if we're really, truly looking at the world of, if we want to be, well, being people and granted, we don't want the economy to crash, the money is a part of, as you said, it's part of the equation. But, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean that there can't be, you know, a little bit of economic setback might not be the worst thing in the world. So I feel, Daniel Crosby 18:23 I feel that way often. Tim Houlihan 18:24 Well, we talked to Abby Davison recently about her book money and love, Unknown Speaker 18:29 and Tim Houlihan 18:31 I'm just fascinated by what Kurt has been talking about, what you've been what you've been talking about, Daniel, this we've tried to disentangle money from everything else, from well being, from, you know, from our love relationships, from all these different things. And it really doesn't work, we have over prioritized it, right? If I understand you correctly, Daniel, you would agree that we've over prioritized it, or elevated money to a level that is really unnecessary. But it's not so much about trying to pull it out and pull the thread out of the fabric, right? Daniel Crosby 19:09 Yeah, no, I think you're exactly right. It goes back to the physical reality and the psychological reality. Again, I like, I still love money, and money still does, you know, money still does good things in my life and in everyone's life, and it's still a material and important part of of a relationship, or, you know, any other conversation you want to have. In fact, the only reason I still work in finance and haven't gotten bored off yet is because money touches every part of our lives. And so you can have a conversation about something that's sort of inherently more interesting to me, like relationships or love, and money is a piece of that, and you know, a big piece of it. So it isn't about asceticism. Just, you know, living in a monkish way, or, you know, abstaining from caring about money. It's not that at all. It's just putting it in its proper context. Because at this point, there's such a halo effect around money, and people assume so many good things about people who have money, that I think a lot of people pursue it and neglect more more attainable and more sure and more holistic paths to happiness. I Kurt Nelson 20:30 want to dig down on that, because I think that's a really interesting piece, that halo effect that money has on people and people's perception of people with money. And I, I heard something recently, and I can't remember who it was, but it was this idea that we have, we have put, you know, money, people with money, on a pedestal, that they're good people and they're not they just because you are a billionaire doesn't mean that you are good or even that you're smart or that you have some unknown wisdom. It means that you have made a lot of money, and that is basically it. And yet we look at those people with a sense of awe, and there is power with money, particularly when you get a lot of money, you can you can purchase certain things, whether they be physical or non physical, elements within that. And I there's not a question there. It's more of just a statement, like I do often, that this idea that money equates with something bigger and better as an individual, as we are, as a as human beings, I think is Miss misaligned. And I think there's if we could get away from that and just Yeah, you made a lot of money. Great. You made a lot of money. That doesn't put you on any other pedestal outside of that. Daniel Crosby 21:46 Yeah, it's, you know, it's interesting. So your, your show has for many years, talked about heuristics, right? So we, when we meet someone, or when we're trying to evaluate someone, we have a limited set of heuristics, so limited set of rules of thumb by which to evaluate them. And I mean money is sort of front and center. You look at other things like the like the way they the way they look, and you see, there's a halo effect with that too. We think people who are thin or attractive have a host of other positive characteristics. And what being thin means is that you have some mix of, you know, of good eating habits and good genes, right, like, and that's, that's what being thin means. And being being wealthy means you're good at making money. It doesn't mean you're good at government efficiency or a host of to use a completely out of nowhere example, but like, but, you know, we, we us. We have limited data points, and so we, we generalize massively around something like money. And people get that. They go, Look, if I'm wealthy, I'll be construed as intelligent. And, you know, and generous and kind and hard working and a million other things, and it means you're good at making money, but that's also never going to go away, because we're never going to have all the information and how someone looks and, you know, how much money they have, or sort of front and center. It's been it's been interesting. It's been weird for me. In the last year, I've lost nearly 70 pounds through a program of diet and exercise, and it's been awesome. Like, I mean, there's been a lot I have loved about it. But what is weird is that the world got easier for me and people got nice. I don't want to overstate it. It's not like anyone was terrible to me before, but it's like people are friendlier to me now, and that's disappointing. It's dis like, it's disappointing that I'm I'm playing life on an easier setting now as a thin person than I was as someone who was overweight, and it's sort of been an interesting AB test within the same person. Tim Houlihan 24:12 Yeah, that's, it is scary. Actually. It's, it's not a really, it's not a happy message to to carry Kurt Nelson 24:22 you. Kurt. Hey, this is Kurt, and we want to say thanks for listening to behavioral grooves, and we hope that you're enjoying this episode, but it feels a little bit one sided. You're hearing from us, but we're not hearing from you. This Tim Houlihan 24:35 is Tim, and we have two suggestions to remedy that. The first is join our Facebook page and engage with us. We want to talk with Kurt Nelson 24:44 you. We want to hear your perspectives, and hopefully, our Facebook page might be the place to have some of that interaction. So please, please come and join us. Tim Houlihan 24:54 The other recommendation we have for you is to leave us a quick rating, you know, the little five star thing at the bottom of your app. You or a short review. Just leave us a few words about what you like about behavioral grooves. We very much appreciate it. Kurt Nelson 25:06 Thanks, and we now return you to our regularly scheduled programming. Tim Houlihan 25:12 I wanted to go back you talked about your work in finance, your your scholarly work has been in psychology and in finance, and so you come to this from sort of a subsystem of behavioral science that a lot of people refer to as behavioral finance. And could you just tell our listeners a little bit about what differentiate what is behavioral finance and what differentiates it from other aspects of behavioral science or or just from investing and, you know, the sort of pure financial and wealth management sorts of things. Yeah, Daniel Crosby 25:50 so I'll, I'll give you the guy from Alabama definition of of what behavioral finance is. And I think it's just, it's just finance that accounts for the messiness of human nature. And in one of my gay not my latest book, with the book before that, there was some research that I think about all the time, and it was a series of fMRI studies where they're they're monitoring electrical activity around in the brain around different types of stimuli. So they're showing people stimuli around sex and death and politics and religion and money and like all the good stuff, you know, all the stuff you can't talk about in polite company. And they're measuring how activated people like, the level of arousal in the brain around these different stimuli. And the thing that was most excitatory was not sex or death or rock and roll, it was money. And money is profoundly emotional. And you could even say it's, I mean, there's an argument to be made that it's the most emotional thing, and so behavioral finance is just finance that accounts for that messiness, that accounts for that emotion, and tries to create systems and processes that work with that messiness and not pretend it doesn't exist. Tim Houlihan 27:16 Well, give us an example of how you might how you might use it. Daniel Crosby 27:20 So in the book, I talk about the power of purpose, the power of a why people who see a picture of their children before they make a financial decision, make better decisions, and they save twice as much as a control group totally irrational makes no sense also, I will totally use it, right? I will absolutely, I will absolutely use it, and that's part of what I've done at Orion in my day job, is to try and incorporate greater salience or greater visuals or greater vividness into the way that people think about their finances with respect to positive emotions. You know another thing, someone who has a financial goal, sort of a dry, like a sterile financial goal, okay, Tim wants to retire to Vail, right? So we go, okay, well, Tim wants to retire to Vail. Cool. We can plug that into our financial plan, but it doesn't do much. But if we helped him visualize it and say, Hey, where are you know, where on the mountain is it going to be, and what kind of trees are you going to plant, and where will you have coffee in the morning? And where will you hike? If we can amp up the salience of that, you're about 73% more likely to hit that goal. So again, that's totally irrational. There's no good reason why that should work, but since it does, I will understand that about you, and I will exploit that. So it's just, it's knowing how humans operate, and designing, planning and portfolios and related things that that meet humans where they're at to the extent possible. Kurt Nelson 29:08 Now, Daniel, that was a great example, except for that was my bail dream, and Tim's is being on the beach in Portugal. So we can just, just, I am the veil ski guy that would be I'm all over doing that, but it is interesting when we think about the, as you said, the the messiness of human life and the the way that our brains operate and that they don't operate in a normal rational way that a classical economist would typically think about those things, as you said, shouldn't matter. A classical economist would say you have a goal. It's a goal. It doesn't matter if you can visualize the coffee that you're drinking in the morning and the trees that are outside of your window versus I want to live in Vail those should have. Have no meaning or no impact on what I do, and yet they do. What are some of the other psychological traits that kind of trip people up? I mean, if you were to again, this is that. This is the fun part, right? This is the fun part where we go, wow, I know that, but I didn't know that. So Daniel Crosby 30:20 your your exploration of the roots of behavioral economics is an awesome place to start for people who are interested in that. That was just incredible work. So hats off to y'all there. But in one of my previous books, I tell you know, there's something like 200 ish cognitive biases that that impact the way we think about money. But I tried to break it down into what I call these meta biases, and I came up with four. The one was ego, which is the various forms of overconfidence. We could talk about that in a minute. One was emotion, the tendency to, you know, to think with our heart before our head. The third was attention, the tendency to react to things that are loud over things that are likely. And then the final one was conservatism, which is this sort of constellation of tendencies, like status quo proneness, loss aversion, like we just like to play it safe. We like what we know. We don't like to take big risks. We like certainty. So those are kind of the big four to me, thinking we know more and we're better than we are, being emotional, attending to things that are loud, over things that are likely, and wanting certainty and safety. Tim Houlihan 31:42 Yeah, well, let's, let's actually talk about the the last one, this conservativism, this the status quo bias, that that can get in our way when it comes to the way we think about the way we process money, is that, is that where you're going with that? Daniel Crosby 31:59 So it can, but, you know, consistent what we've what we talked about earlier, it also, if we understand, it can be used to our benefit. Yeah, I'm a I'm a big believer. So my son does martial arts. My son does karate, and I'm really worried about his increasing size and his increasing skill in karate, so I'm trying to be nice to the kid, but he's gonna kick your ass. Today is the day is coming that I'm not gonna want to pop off to that young man. Yeah. So one of the things that he has taught me about is this idea of this circular theory of self defense. So basically, if someone's attacking you, you want to roll with that resistance and let that person's exertion work against them and for you, and not try and just stop it cold. I think for many years when we have talked about behavioral biases, we have taken the approach of stop it cold. Like, if your status quo prone, like, cut it out buddy. Like, buck up. You know, be different. Get it in gear. Tim Houlihan 33:11 Just stop being biased. Yes, stop being Daniel Crosby 33:14 biased. Now, you know, and you know, but I think some of the most brilliant interventions, like, if you look at something like the save more tomorrow program, which I would you know this is, you know, Thaler and banars program that basically locked in the auto withdrawal and the auto escalation of retirement savings, a Simple but profoundly impactful development in finance, and the thing that's so brilliant about it, whereas historically, we've said, well, humans are lazy and status quo prone, so we're going to kick their butts and we're going to teach them like how important it is to save and we're going to teach them about the miracle of compounding, and hope they do the right thing. They learned. But Nazi said, You know what? People are lazy and status quo prone. So let's just let them be that. But let's let them make one different decision. Let's lock in, let's lock in that saving. And every time they get a raise, the saving gets bumped up. And then they're gonna forget about it, the same way they forgot about their HBO Max subscription, and they're just, and they're just gonna, they're just gonna let it rock, and that, that has been the biggest thing so that those, to me, are the most brilliant behavioral interventions where we can take a human tends tendency that is ostensibly negative. You know, you think about being lazy and status quo, bro, and you go, that's not great. Well, sometimes it is great. Yeah, you think you think about being emotional. I mean, the emotion is the crux of that thing that I was talking about before, about visualizing the place in Vail or Puerto Rico, or wherever we're going and like, that's emotional. 72 so yes, emotionality can cause you to panic and sell everything earlier this year when tariff madness is going on. But emotionality can also lead you to log into your account, see the picture of your kids, visualize your retirement in very personally meaningful terms with your advisor and then do great things. So it's much easier as behavioral scientists, to roll with resistance than to try and white knuckle our way to some virtuous human behavior that is really hard to come by. Tim Houlihan 35:35 You know that as you're talking, it reminds me of a conversation that Kurt and I had yesterday, we were talking about how a lot of people just think, when you tell them about a study and a particular revelation and uncovering a bias, and people are like, Well, yeah, so what like? Well, that's behavioral science. Well, that's totally that's totally intuitive. You know, I totally get that, but you what you just highlighted was that the interventions aren't so intuitive. The interventions are counterintuitive. It's understanding the the intuitive nature of the human condition and developing a counterintuitive way of dealing with it. Daniel Crosby 36:13 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it's in the book I talk about River Jordan problems. This is a, you know, from a from a story in the Bible, right where we're going to take them to church real quick, where naman, you know, name in this powerful Centurion, this powerful warrior guy, he has leprosy, goes, sends His servant to the holy man. And the holy man goes, you know, go bathe in the river Jordan. And name, and effectively says, the river, Jordan sucks. Like, the river, Jordan's dirty. Like, what am I going to do? Bathe in the river Jordan. And you know, the the servant comes back to him and says, you know, Master, if, if the holy man had asked you to do something complicated, you would have done it. So give it. Give it a shot. And he does, and he's healed. That's the case with behavioral science, sometimes we're looking for things that are scientific and lurid and, you know, complicated, and here we go with save more tomorrow the easiest thing in the world, 10s of billions in benefit from just the simplest little insight into human behavior. So it doesn't always have to be complicated, and sometimes the simplicity of us, since the simplicity of the fix causes us to overlook Kurt Nelson 37:27 it again, the way that you you state that, and though what we're talking about here, I think is just so important for people to understand, because we too often discount All of that. I think another piece of the book that I found really interesting, and one that I wanted to really kind of dig in with you, is this moral aspect of wealth, right? And you talk about maybe correct me if I'm wrong here, but you argue that people should do more work integrating their own moral philosophy with their personal finance. And so help us understand that. What do you mean by that? And how would I go about doing that? And why? So Daniel Crosby 38:17 there's, there's a couple of reasons why I think this is important I've been doing. You know, you mentioned that this book is philosophical in nature, yeah, in a way that is unusual for finance books. And that's, excuse me, that I find that to be a huge compliment, because I've been doing a lot of research right now. And my next book will not be about finance at all. It will just be about meaning and purpose in life. And I'm actually really close to being done with it. And when I have looked into the science of meaning, because when you, when you tell people you're writing a book on the meaning of life, it's like, okay, dude, you know, you kind of get some eye rolls, which I understand. But when you when you look at people who live lives of purpose, there's really three things that they do well, and there's three B's, it's believing, belonging and becoming. So becoming is they have a sense of who they want to be, and they're working to better themselves every day. Belonging is they have people who love them and who they love and believing is, they have some sort of roadmap for making their way through this crazy life. It could be a personal moral philosophy, spirituality, religion, whatever it is, but they have some sort of personal code that they live by. So I do, unapologetically think that is important, whatever that looks like, and the research backs that up, money is quite unexpectedly a beautiful way to live out this believing peace, because whatever you want the world to look like, right, whether. It's a, you know, more women in seats of power, or greater kindness to animals, or, you know, greater like a kinder, gentler world for children, whatever you want the world to look like, whatever your moral framework, one of the surest ways you can vote for that world is by the way that you spend your money, and if you look at, if you look at every powerful human rights movement of the last however long, right, how did we end apartheid? Well, by disqualifying South Africa from international sporting competitions and by boycotting De Beers, right? How did we end this like, what was the lever to bring about change in the civil rights movement in the southeastern US? Well, it was lunch counter sit ins and bus boycotts. These are profoundly financial levers, right? All of this. What did, how did this country get kicked off throwing tea in a harbor. I mean, that's a fight. That's a form of financial protest. So whether it's financial protest like that and financial activism, or whether it's me taking my kid to the farmer's market every Saturday, and recently, I took my kids there, which I do most Saturdays. And my son noticed that the spaghetti sauce we bought was, you know, an order of magnitude more expensive than the Prego we usually get. Hey, I noticed he's a very this kid is on. This kid will be a billionaire if I could, if I could get 10% of his future income right now I would pay good money. Yeah, if he's like, Hey, that's that seems really expensive. And I said it absolutely is. But we're not trying to get the cheapest spaghetti sauce like I'm trying to live in a world where on a beautiful spring morning I can walk with my kids in a downtown and support local entrepreneurs. The way that I make that possible is by dropping 15 bones on spaghetti sauce. So, like, that's, you know, that's, that's, that's how that happens. Because if, if people like us don't do that, the farmers market goes away. And so bring that same energy and that same activism to every part of your life, because where you spend your your dollars are your vote. And however you're voting, you're gonna get more of that. I vote a little bit too much for little Debbies and Diet Cokes lately, but, you know, but however you spend your money is, you're going to get more of that, the world will look more like that. Kurt Nelson 42:42 Yeah, Tim Houlihan 42:45 you also talk about time and the importance of how you spend your time. Ashley willens wrote a great book a couple of years ago about about time, and talked about how people in in the world today, in the modern world, are time impoverished. Basically, this is something that that you've kind of echoed recently. What can we do to be better at the way that we spend our time, at making those time related decisions? Daniel Crosby 43:14 Well, so what's what's interesting is the time impoverishment that you talk about. We all feel it. And if you ask me, Are you time impoverished? I would be the first in line to tell you yes. And then every Sunday morning, I get my screen time report, and uh oh, I can tell you, I can tell you that there's a level of self deception there, and that there's a level of lack of accountability. Because what we know from the research around time is that, let's be honest, we have more time, more discretionary time, than at any point in human history. I'm not saying we're not busy. I've got three kids, I have a big job, you know, whatever. I'm not saying we're not busy, but we do have more discretionary time than any humans have ever had ever and what the research shows is that minute for minute, pound for pound, that free time goes to screens. And I look, I am not a righteous crusader against screens. I love TV so much I don't even really want to give it up. Like I mean, if we're going to whine about not having much time, and if we understand how precious time is, I think it's a call for being critical and self reflective on where that time is going, because the research is very clear that for most of us, it's going to Netflix, and that's if that's what you want to do, okay, but don't say you have no time. Just say, Hey, I'm watching a lot of sweet shows right now, and, you know, give us some good wrecks, but at least, be honest about where your your time is going. Like. Kurt Nelson 45:00 But I think there's an aspect there that it gives goes back to the psychology part of this. It is the I don't want to spend that time in front of screens, particularly maybe social media. I know I fall into this all of the time. I need to go on for something, for work, and all of a sudden, 40 minutes later, I realize I'm just, you know, scrolled through. It's not even Doom scrolling. It is just, it's just dumb scrolling right where it is. Literally, I'm looking at stupid stuff and laughing at bad dad jokes and watching the new, you know, Bigfoot AI things out camping with their stupid stuff, and I laugh a little bit. But if I had to look back at my day going, where did I actually spend my time? And is that where I wanted to spend it? That would probably not be it. And I think that there's a big issue there, from a psychology perspective, as we go forward Daniel Crosby 46:02 in the soul of wealth, I'm going to forget the exact minutes in the study, but in the soul of wealth, I cite research that people who limited their time on social media to I believe it was 15 minutes in the morning and 15 minutes in the evening had A 10% boost in happiness, that is, and that's like, not abstinence from social media, that's just sort of thoughtful consumption. That's not saying you can never get on Twitter. That's just saying be thoughtful about it. And I mean 10, a 10% increase in happiness that's commensurate with, like, Prozac. I mean that that's like a, that's like a psych med level of boost to your happiness. And so, yeah, I don't think, I think the answer is just greater thoughtfulness. And again, you know, I'll bring it back to my new nutritional journey. I the thing that I did to lose weight was just simply accountability. I mean, I literally just tracked calories and protein. That's all I did. Like changed nothing about my exercise, nothing like I tracked calories and protein. I didn't even stop eating sweets. In fact, the first thing I do every morning is I enter a full size Snickers bar into my thing because at eight o'clock, by God, that is, like, you know that is happening, and like everything else, can just kind of get in line. And I tell you that Snickers bar at eight o'clock hits like a Mac truck, because I have been waiting for it and anticipating it. Social media is fun. Social media is great. Bigfoot. AI is fun. But when we consume it indiscriminately, whether it's calories or social media or whatever, when we consume indiscriminately, it loses its satiety. You know, it loses those reward signals so infrequent, splurges are the best, I think, is the thing to remember there. Tim Houlihan 48:04 Okay, Snickers boy, we had a we lost a major musical pioneer in songwriting this week, Brian Wilson. And I was wondering, do you have a favorite Brian Wilson song Daniel Crosby 48:20 so God, I mean, God only knows is gonna be, of course, the top of my list, but a very close second, for a very particular reason, is good vibrations. And the reason is this, I listen to a lot of sad, spooky music, which is just what you would want from your friendly neighborhood, shrink right radio. Radiohead is my favorite band. I met my wife over a shared love of Radiohead like I'm just as my musical tastes are just as dour and depressing as you would hope from someone in my position. But what Brian Wilson did with good vibrations is he put a theremin, the spookiest of all instruments right. Used to make Scooby Doo ghost sounds and make sad noises, and he put a theremin in a summertime love bop. And that, to me, is the height of genius. To put the like the de facto spooky instrument in a song that was as upbeat as Good Vibrations is the hallmark of a great a great mind. Tim Houlihan 49:29 Tell people what a theremin is, because it's it's not like a guitar or a keyboard or a drum. Daniel Crosby 49:35 So a theremin is this thing you you control it by the positioning of your hand, and it does the like in air, in air, yeah. And so I don't even know how to explain it. It's got like, an X and a Y axis, and you move your hand around the space and the the tone, yeah. But would you listen to good vibrations? And it's like, you like that. That. That's what, that's what it is that Theremin, it's the Scooby Doo. Kurt Nelson 50:05 Think of Scooby Doo, it is, though, when the ghost comes in you, that's the theremin, yeah, yeah. Tim Houlihan 50:12 I'm a big fan of good vibrations. Of course, God only knows is one of the most complex and simplest tunes. It's just really kind of amazing. But your start, Daniel Crosby 50:23 start a love song. Start, arguably the greatest pop love song of all time, with I may not always love you. I may not, right, yeah, I may not always love you. This is incredible, incredible work, rip and Tim Houlihan 50:37 all the key changes, but I would agree with you on the Good Vibrations thing, because I the vocal arrangement on that is just stunning, like they just delivered something that they literally in concert, could just reproduce so easily, so simply, and yet, if you've tried to sing the vocal parts to good vibrations, it ain't Easy bop. It is a it is a tricky song. Is a really difficult song to actually pull off. And I think that that's just cool. What would you if you had a desert island experience for a year and you could bring a listening device that could only have two musical artists on it? Who would you who? Which two musical artists would you bring? Daniel Crosby 51:22 Okay, so the first one is super easy. The first one is Radiohead. I mean, Tim Houlihan 51:27 you would do it. You just would subject yourself to all that sadness. Daniel Crosby 51:32 Yeah, I'm on an island, man. I mean, it's I want. I'm gonna be in my feelings. I'm stranded for a year. Yeah, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say Radiohead for sure, the everything else is going to be recency bias. I've been listening to a ton of turnstile lately. That's been my workout music lately. So we'll go with Radiohead and turn style an upper and a downer. Tim Houlihan 51:56 Okay, okay, so your novelty seeking? Yes, that's right, Kurt Nelson 52:03 Daniel, what I know this is like picking your favorite child, but of Radiohead songs? Do you have a top song from Radiohead? Daniel Crosby 52:13 I really kind of don't, but when pressed, I say how to disappear completely, because I love the story behind it. Tom York had a panic attack. He they were, they were beginning to, they were beginning to get big, yeah. And he was having a panic attack right before a show. And so he was, he was leaving the show. I mean, he was just freaking out and leaving His own, His own concert, wow. And so he got on the tube just like, you know, exit stage left to try and leave his show. But then he's mobbed by fans that are headed to the show, and he finds out that he can't escape. And so he goes, Well, screw it, I guess I better just go. Oh, that's a great story. And he sort of resigns himself to performing, and he goes back and does the show. But I do love the song. But the story, to me, of of trying to escape from life, and, you know, not being able to, I just think is so great. Kurt, do you have a favorite Tim Houlihan 53:17 Radiohead song? Is it? Kurt Nelson 53:20 You know, Fake Plastic Trees is probably, you know, going back to their early work, you know, it's just the storyline on that too, and the way that they use the lyrics to really talk about something else when they're talking about you know, Tom York is a great lyricist. Is just fantastic in that so yeah. Tim Houlihan 53:48 Daniel Crosby, thanks so much for being a guest on behavioral grooves again, and we look forward to seeing you the next time as well. Daniel Crosby 53:56 You guys are awesome. Your enthusiasm for the work makes it easy to listen to. Thanks for doing what you do. Kurt Nelson 54:10 Welcome to our grooving session where Tim and I share ideas on what we learned from our discussion with Daniel. Have a free flowing conversation and groove on whatever else comes into our behavioral Judo Tim Houlihan 54:21 brains. I love that. Now, just for the sake of full disclosure, we didn't actually talk about behavioral judo in our conversation with Daniel that like that term didn't come Kurt Nelson 54:32 up, no, but we talked about the martial art aspect of this, rolling with your with with our behavioral biases, as opposed to trying to fight them off, right? This is an important piece, and I think it's the piece that we're going to groove on really extensively. But before we do that, I just want to say, hey, it's always, every time we talk with Daniel, every single time, yeah, I just take. Something away, I learned something, and I can apply it directly in my life. And it's just fascinating. It's not just fascinating, it's awesome. Tim Houlihan 55:08 Well, wealth is more than money. Wealth is more than a bank account number. Wealth is more than what you can buy with that money. These are like, in some ways, it's kind of mind blowing, but it's like they should these are just solid reminders that add value to my life, to every now and then go, oh yeah, it's just not about the dollars on Kurt Nelson 55:28 the paycheck. I love the idea that this isn't just about the number in our bank account, that Daniel elevates this to a philosophical element even the title soul of wealth, right? True wealth integrates financial resources with our personal values. It's not about what I can buy, how much money I have, and all of those biases that he talked about, ego, conservatism, all the, all Tim Houlihan 55:59 four of the emotions you Kurt Nelson 56:00 bring in right impact that not always in a most positive way. Tim Houlihan 56:09 Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so Kurt Nelson 56:10 there were, there were a couple other things before we get into the horrible Judo piece. Look, Daniel talks about this, and this is what I knew this, but I'm taking this again out of this conversation is time is our most precious resource, and we need to be intentional about how we use it. I too often find myself freaking scrolling through social media and that idea that, hey, you reduce social media use and you can increase your happiness by 10% Tim Houlihan 56:42 Yeah. Or, or, how about this? Another great reminder was, uh, pursuing sort of a more holistic view of life, like, you know, having, having 100 things across the the whole field of your life that you improve. 1% is so much better than improving one thing 100% like, yeah, work on your you know, work a little bit on your mental health, work a little bit on your emotional health, work about on your physical health. Here, all of these things are worthwhile doing at the same Kurt Nelson 57:10 time. And the last piece on this is your financial choices. They're this, this powerful vote on the world you want to create. And for me, what that allowed. I know this. I know this at the very essence of who I am, but it almost allowed me to have the it says it's okay for you to spend some more money on something, because what you're doing is building this world that you want to create. It's no longer about that dollar amount that I have in the bank account. It's about the world that I want to create, and I'm spending the money on that world I want to create. I'm spending a lot of money on my kids education. That's okay, and I don't have to feel guilty about that or go, oh, how much could we we're losing all this money for our retirement. No, this is not I want to spend that money on my kids so that they can have this better world. It's the donations that I make for, you know, different things. It's the type of restaurants I go to, a number of those factors, and it's okay, because that aligns with my personal values and helps me create the world that I want to live in Tim Houlihan 58:30 beautifully. Said, Okay, let's talk about behavioral judo, so Kurt Nelson 58:34 working with our biases instead of fighting them. Tim Houlihan 58:39 So the whole idea behind this, I find fascinating, because it is about just going, This is who I am, this is actually who I am, and acknowledging that I have these, these biases that can make become errors in my judgments. Yeah, is a really, it's a great So awareness is a good place to start. It's not the whole story, but it's a good place to start, Kurt Nelson 59:03 right? I think their awareness is key, because if we're not aware, it's really important. But I think the piece, Daniel said this on a quote here, so make sure I read this right. He said it's easier to roll with resistance than to white knuckle our way to virtuous human behavior, okay, boom, boom, yeah, and there is an aspect of how we've been raised, at least myself, Is that I'm always trying to be that virtuous person I want. I have an image of who I want to be, and oftentimes I have to fight myself, and the more that I can not fight but instead roll with my biases, the better off I'm going to be Tim Houlihan 59:58 right because and. Some ways. This is something our friend Christian hunt says frequently. They're not bugs, they're actually features in our system, right? That these are things that, if we understand how to leverage them properly and to work with them, this is just part of who we are, and it can actually enhance our lives. Let's talk about some examples of well, Kurt Nelson 1:00:20 actually, before we go there, I mean, oh, I just want to go back. Because, again, this isn't new. Kurt Lewin talked about force fields, this idea of right, not just it's not just the pushing, it's the friction. And he said oftentimes we can remove that friction to drive the behaviors that we want easier than by putting more effort into pushing, and too often we just focus in on pushing. That is behavioral judo, right there? That is behavioral judo, yeah, now he should have called that behavioral Judo instead of force field analysis. I think he just Tim Houlihan 1:00:57 wasn't a very smart guy, I guess. All Kurt Nelson 1:01:01 right, so what are some examples? Tim, well, the Tim Houlihan 1:01:04 first one that comes to mind is something that you and I have worked on a lot, and that is incentives and rewards, right? So it's such a common thought that the best, the best incentive rule, is one that just challenges the hell out of people, and the best incentive reward is what is cash, because then people can go out and do what they want. But it turns out that those, both of those things, are myths, that the data actually reveals. The evidence from studies shows that actually the best incentive rule is something that makes it makes me feel like the stretch is achievable. When I have a perceived sense of achievability, then I'm more willing to strive. It's just if it's too far out in the distance or too difficult, I check out. And then on the reward side, we want, basically, we want social status. And well, being that, more money actually doesn't buy us those things. And And sure, money is important to life this. I mean, we're talking about the soul of wealth, like money is important, but when it comes to incentives and rewards, the research says go the opposite direction. Choose, choose a rule structure that allows people to feel like their goals are achievable, and choose rewards that support their sense of social well being, or social standing and well being. Kurt Nelson 1:02:24 I'm working with an organization right now. We're doing a whole bunch of interviews with senior senior leaders and executives, and part of this is around an IC philosophy. And what we're looking to understand is I see, I see being incentive, incentive compensation philosophy. Thank you that we are looking to understand. You know, all right, we have an annual forecast that has been talked to Wall Street. And if the those forecast numbers, if the sales force isn't hitting it, first quarter, second quarter. All right, we still have this recommendation out to Wall Street, so we're just going to pile that what you missed into now q3 and q4 Tim Houlihan 1:03:12 so, so your numbers just got radically higher for actually, no other reason than this is what we committed to Wall Street. To Kurt Nelson 1:03:22 we committed to Wall Street, we have to hit that number. And you get these executives who that's where their focus is. And to your point earlier, what are you trying to do? What are you trying to achieve? If that goal becomes so far out of reach, you have actually demotivated. So instead of actually having people be rewarded for hitting their number, you are taking that number and making it so far away that they just say, Nope, I'm not even going to go. You're decreasing the performance of the organization. Now we have to work through this idea, with these, with executives and various different pieces on this. But this is a key aspect that I think many leaders have. They have this idea that to drive we have to hold people's feet to the fire. We've committed to this. There's accountability. You can go in a number of multitudes of ways of justifying this, but in the end, what you're trying to achieve is increased motivation so that your sales people are out there selling that may not be the best way to achieve that. Yeah, Tim Houlihan 1:04:37 that's a great example. Kurt, what are some other examples of rolling with our biases. What are some hacks that we can do where we know that our disposition is set up in a particular way, our DNA, our genetic code, leans this way when the world actually is kind of pulling us in a different direction? Kurt Nelson 1:04:54 So here's, I mean, I think Daniel talks about some of this. In our conversation for listeners, get his book. It is fascinating. Multitude of chapters with really cool names, like Love, Lies and a great awakening insufficiency, change, the dream, you know, scarcity and sufficiency, the search for prosperity, all of the you know, there's and they're short, they're these little essays, essays of this, and each of them is like this little spark of insight. But with that, I think one of the things that you know one of these hacks, and it's not necessarily a hack, it's just visualize your financial goals with the emotional detail in them, we know that our behavior is much more influenced by our emotions than it is by our rational brain. And if you can tie the emotional benefit of a financial aspect of what you're doing, you're more likely to make that behavior stick. Tim Houlihan 1:06:04 I want to just highlight one you mentioned this earlier, but I want to say that this is really, really important, so I'm just going to re emphasize something you already said, and that is, align your spending with your personal values. You feel better, by the way, still has to be within your budget. You can't just be spend thrift all the time, but I think that that alignment can really add a lot of value to your life. Kurt Nelson 1:06:31 We can get into really practical things. Use calendar blocking, oh, as opposed to a to do list or others, but put anything that you really want to do and that you have a plan for, make time on your calendar, block off an hour once a day, or, yeah, two hours every week, or 30 minutes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, whatever it is, block it off. Yeah, commit to that. Make that easy for you to do because it's already in your calendar. Tim Houlihan 1:07:11 Or use Katie milkman Fresh Start Model when it comes to starting new habits, new routines, things that are in your life, say it's going to be on this on this Monday, on my anniversary, on my birthday, on the first of the month, whatever that that day is that you want to pick, make it a meaningful day to you, and use that to say, I've got a fresh start going forward, or Kurt Nelson 1:07:31 bring in Charles Duhigg and make sure your new routine or new behavior is tied to an existing behavior, that the idea of I will floss my teeth after I brush my teeth, and after that, I will do whatever else it is, right? That something that you're currently already doing, it makes it that much easier, right? Yeah, Tim Houlihan 1:07:55 or I'll add Fischbach. One of my favorite things from her, is when you're working on big goals, do two things, be flexible in the specific, the specificity of the outcome, and look back for progress. Keep, keep your show, you know, turn your head over your shoulder and go, Hey, I've got this big goal out here, but I have made this much progress. Those are things that that work. Those are, those are all behavioral Judo things that can make our life better. Kurt Nelson 1:08:26 Yeah, these aren't necessarily behavioral Judo tips. No, I just said they are. They are the next ones that I'm going to talk Oh, the next one. The these are the, those are a lot of those what we talked about, but the ones I'm gonna bring up now, oh, aren't necessary. They're they're more of the push component, right? So okay, the piece on making sure we spend our time where we want it and not to squander that most vital of our resources. So number one, track how you're actually spending your time. Track, track it like you're tracking calories if you're on a weight loss program. Where am I spending my time? Do that for a couple weeks and just see where your time is and see where you're wasting it. Yeah, with that, this is the big push, not the reduce limit your fricking social media to 15 minutes in the morning and 15 minutes in the evening, yeah. Or if you set a timer, do that again. That's a very specific number. Figure out what works for you and figure out the time, but put limits around it, guardrail it in saying I have this within here that's fine. Once I get out of there, once I break over that guardrail, then I'm in trouble, and I need to have ways of pulling myself back in. I would add to that, Tim Houlihan 1:09:56 that with this awareness, can come more in. Intentionality, right? You can be more intentional about how you want to spend your time. I want to, you know, I'm going to limit my social media consumption in order to be intentional about how I'm going to spend my time, which, of course, is in itself, a way of being intentional about how you're spending your Kurt Nelson 1:10:19 time. We talked even before we got on this call, about you wanting to spend more time with music, right, and being intentional about that. So just get off your lazy butt and do music. And no, you need to figure out where you can carve that time out and what, what can you give up and being intentional about that. So, yeah, I just again, I want to really emphasize, I loved Daniel's perspective on this. It's not about the number in your bank account. I mean, the soul of wealth isn't about that. It's not about having more things in our lives. It's really aligning your financial goals, your financial behaviors, with the values that you have in your life. And when you can do that, then you're going to be happier, you're going to be more content, you're going to have all those things. I love the speed round question where Daniel said, Damn, I could take more time off, right? I mean, don't, don't increase my, you know, money that I earn. I want time off. I want that time. And time is valuable, and so make sure that you guys are doing this. Tim Houlihan 1:11:37 So, so this behavioral Judo thing, it's a great concept, right? So I think one of the big takeaways is it's not about white knuckling, to use Daniel's term, your way through this stuff. It's about changing the context of your world, right? It's about making decisions that roll with with our biases, rather than trying to force ourselves against them. Yeah, Kurt Nelson 1:12:01 exactly. It's not about becoming a different person. It's about becoming a smarter designer of your own environment, right? It, yeah, like work with the lazy, biased, emotional stuff that you are, right, rather than trying to constantly fight against that. I you know, that's the thing that we need to take advantage of. We can, we can hack those. We can use some behavioral Judo to do that. Tim Houlihan 1:12:30 Use some of your laziness and your social media desires to go out and check out our Facebook community page or behavioral groups community. Kurt Nelson 1:12:40 And I like how he's there you go. And actually, because that'll be intentional and it'll be valuable for you, and not just seeing what Kim Kardashian is wearing this week, instead, you could get some behavioral science insights or be asked a very thought provoking question that gets you to think maybe about how you can improve your life or what you should be doing today. With our daily groove question, you should go out and check that out. Tim Houlihan 1:13:12 Use the daily groove question from the behavioral grooves community page on Facebook, or some of the insights that you took from Daniel's conversation today and use them this Week as you go out and find your groove. You Transcribed by https://otter.ai