Unknown Speaker 0:00 Kurt Nelson, Kurt Nelson 0:07 welcome to behavior grooves, the podcast that explores the psychological principles behind why we do what we do. I'm Kurt Nelson and I'm Tim Houlihan. On today's episode, we have the privilege of speaking with Wes Adams and Tamara miles, co authors of the book meaningful work, how to ignite passion and performance in every Tim Houlihan 0:27 employee. Their book explores what creates meaning at work through a framework that they call the three C's, community contribution and challenge. Kurt Nelson 0:37 That's right. Tim Tamara miles brings a unique perspective to this conversation. She was originally a productivity consultant for 15 years before going back to graduate school to specifically study meaningful work, after noticing what she called a virtuous cycle where meaningful work led to more energy and better productivity. Tim Houlihan 0:58 Yeah And Wes Adams partners with Tamara and researching how leaders can intentionally create an environment where employees find more meaning, which drives better business results. Kurt Nelson 1:09 Yeah. And what I found fascinating in our conversation was how they discovered that leaders are responsible for almost half of the experience of meaning at work, showing how critical leadership is in creating these meaningful environments. Yeah, they Tim Houlihan 1:23 also share some wonderful stories about companies like Ritz Carlton that empower their employees to create meaningful moments for their customers, which in turn makes the work more meaningful for the employees themselves. Kurt Nelson 1:35 It's that virtuous cycle thing, right? There you go. So the research shows that when all three elements, community contribution and challenge, are present, there's a multiplier effect that amplifies meaning. And when one is missing, it can actually cancel out the benefits of the other two. Tim Houlihan 1:53 Now this episode is one that we thoroughly enjoyed, not just because of great behavioral science insights, but because of how this can have an impact on how Kurt and I do our own consulting, Kurt Nelson 2:04 yeah. I mean, I think one of the interesting things, one of the wonderful things about the show Tim, is that we get to capture the wisdom and insights of all of our wonderful guests, and then we get to apply that wisdom in our work with clients, whether that's about meaning at work, or driving change inside the organization, or engaging your employees more fully in their jobs, we bring the insights of over 400 researchers and practitioners to you when you hire Tim Houlihan 2:32 us. Yeah. So if you have issues in your work that involve people, pretty much any people problems, we can probably help you out. Yeah, so just reach out, and we'd be happy to talk absolutely but right now, we invite you to sit back with a fresh pour of meaningful work and enjoy our conversation with Wes, Adams and Tamara miles, Tim Houlihan 2:59 Wes and Tamara. Welcome to Behavioral Speaker 1 3:01 Grooves. Thank you. We're delighted to be here. It's great to Tim Houlihan 3:05 have you here. Thanks for joining us this morning. And I'm going to start with Tamara. I want to just find out, which would you prefer to ride a bicycle or a unicycle? Oh, neither. Okay, we're starting off with a great Unknown Speaker 3:20 prefer to ride a car or walk. If I had to, I would say bicycle for sure. Speaker 2 3:26 I'd like to see you on a unicycle. Actually, it was one Speaker 1 3:30 of our COVID purchases. You know how, like, people bought random things during COVID, my husband purchased a unicycle. It showed up at the house, and it was like, something really tried. Yeah, really, I was next Kurt Nelson 3:45 time you're here, but you never asked this question a handful of times. And I think anybody that we've ever asked nobody has actually ever owned a unicycle, Speaker 1 3:56 unicycle, but I will say my husband's a big cyclist. You know, he does like those bike races and mountain biking and all the Vikings and so it makes sense that we would add that to the collection. Kurt Nelson 4:08 But you're not this is not a shared this is not a shared activity that you guys do Speaker 1 4:14 up in a high rise in a big city in Brazil with no opportunities, really, to ride bikes and learn how to ride bikes. So I never really learned until my mid 20s, and so I'm slightly terrified of it, so that's why I prefer to not Tim Houlihan 4:27 so I share your same experience with bicycles. They kind of terrify me. I can ride, but I grew up on a farm with horses, and I was like, why would I ride a bike? When I can get on the back of a horse, it's so much better, Kurt Nelson 4:38 right? So okay, too much Wes, I'm going to ask you a different question. All right, all right, do you prefer Speaker 2 4:46 coffee or tea? Oh, I prefer coffee, but I should drink tea. Gets me really excited in the morning, and then I crash in the afternoon. And so. Then I have to drink more of it, and it's a cycle that doesn't end up working out in my best interest. And so if I can exercise self regulation in the morning, and I've been on a matcha kick lately, and so that's been working, it hits a little bit differently. You know, it's a little more of a steady energy throughout the day, so Kurt Nelson 5:16 you're not doing the decaffeinated coffee that doesn't work, is why? Yeah, all right, there you go. Why I got it? I should have known that. I should have just known that. I don't know why I even asked. All right, never mind. Tim Houlihan 5:34 Tamara, true, false question for you, the contribution to something meaningful is more important to employee satisfaction than financial compensation. I don't Speaker 1 5:48 know if we have data. I mean, we have data that people say that, you know, people would take a more meaningful job for less money. So, yes, people prioritize those, those aspects of like contributing to something larger than the self more, but that said, I don't want listeners to think that should be an excuse or a permission to pay people less because they're doing something meaningful. That is kind of like the dirty side of meaningful work, fairness and dignity is table stakes, and then contribution and highlighting those and connecting those dots is what really fuels motivation. Yeah, Kurt Nelson 6:31 well said, well said, we'll dig into that, I think, a little bit more as we move on. Last of our speed around questions, ping ponging back to you, Wes, is it possible for any job, no matter how routine, to be meaningful, Speaker 2 6:51 absolutely. And I think we've seen this proven out in our research and the interviews that we've done, you know, we've talked to, you know, accountants, janitors, hair stylists, people that work in at fast food companies, you know, along with, you know, a range of other professions. And so, moments of meaning are possible in every job every day, if we know where to look, and especially with the guidance of a great leader, which I hope we're going to dig into a little bit more Kurt Nelson 7:19 fantastic. All right, absolutely. Well, we Tim Houlihan 7:21 are talking with Wes, Adams and Tamara miles about their new book, meaningful work, how to ignite passion and performance in every employee. Let's start with a big, big picture question here. What? What do we mean? What do you two mean by meaningful work? Speaker 1 7:37 So the way we define meaningful work is through the framework of the three C's, which is what we highlight in the book, and is what emerged in our data. And those 3c are community contribution and challenge. And so we define meaningful work as work that provides a sense of community, that allows us to contribute to something outside ourselves, and that challenges us to learn and grow, and we can dig into all, you know, all the C's in more detail. Tim Houlihan 8:09 Well, we will, and we and we should, but, I mean, it's interesting because, to some degree, meaning is something that's highly personal, right? Like this is something that we get to define on a very individual basis. So I've been coming up with with this idea of challenge, community and contribution. It am I? Am I right in assuming that, that when it comes to what's going to be meaningful for me, it could be different than what's meaningful for you or for Kurt or for Wes right? Speaker 2 8:37 I think that's an a very interesting question, and the data actually shows that, you know, we come from different perspectives, and, of course, we have different preferences, but all three of these things are important to all of us. And you know, there's some research on, for example, different generations. You know, what does Gen Z think about meaningful work versus boomers, right? And you know, I think there's still more research to be done there, but the data indicates that we all define it similarly, and we're all looking for it, right? And so at the beginning of your career, you might be more interested in challenge. You want to learn and grow, and so you might be a little bit more focused on that. But community and contribution are still really important. And at the end of your career, you might have had, you know, enough challenge, and you might be thinking more about your contribution. So, you know, I think all of them are important at all stages, but some may take a little more priority for folks. Kurt Nelson 9:32 So unless it sounds like to a certain degree that it's a mix of those three, at any point and at any 1.1 might be more relevant to where I am in my life cycle, or who I am, or the context that I'm in compared to others. And again, Tim might have a different mix of those, but the three are always going to be a part of it. Did I capture that Right? Speaker 2 9:53 Absolutely. And what we found actually, is that there's a multiplier effect there, so that when all three are there, they could. Amplify each other, and they work in concert, and if one of them is missing, it can cancel out the other two. And so this is something that we've seen in, for example, nonprofit jobs very high in contribution. Typically, you're working towards a larger purpose, and hopefully you're seeing the impact that your work is having there. But if it's a you know, if it's a place, a toxic workplace, and you don't get along with your employees and you don't feel valued, it can really cancel out the meaning that comes from that job. So all three of these things are important, very Tim Houlihan 10:36 interesting. I wanted to bounce back to Tamara to let, I'd like to lay a foundation for these 3c so that we can, we can get into sort of this compounding effect and how, in aggregate, they work together. But Tamara, could you take a minute and share with us, sort of the important, the salient points for each of the three C's? Speaker 1 10:58 Absolutely. So community is really about a sense of belonging to a community of shared values and the feeling that you can show up authentically and share parts of yourself that are important to you, and also your full set of ideas that you're not holding back, right? And so community says, I matter here. Contribution is about feeling like what you do makes a difference, right? That you're doing something, you're contributing. And so community says what I do matters here, and challenge is really about feeling like leaders in the organization are invested in developing you, in your growth and in your learning and so challenge says my growth matters here. So those are, yeah, go Tim Houlihan 11:55 ahead, yeah. Why are why? How is it Wes implied this Tamara, I just want to continue to follow this through. Why is it that those are the three things that appear to be more universal? What did your research indicate to you? Speaker 1 12:09 So to kind of go back to the individual, individuality of meaning, right? That's a really interesting point that you highlighted, because most of the research that was done prior to our research was done from exactly that perspective, like, how can I as an individual, increase my own sense of meaning? And we were really curious to understand, you know, do leaders, does the organizational structure? Do these things play a role? And if so, what is the role, right? So that's kind of what we set out to find. And we actually found that leaders are responsible for almost half of the experience of meaning at work, so it's a huge influence. And so while we were discovering that impact, we also then discovered, you know, what are leaders doing intentionally to create this sense of meaning. Why, first of all, why do they care? Like, why do leaders think it's important, and what is it that they do? And those were the themes that we heard again and again. You know about trying to build a sense of community, really fostering relationships across the organization, getting to know people at a personal level, really highlighting their contributions, recognizing them, thanking them, and then really beautiful stories about seeing potential in people that they might not even see for themselves yet, and then nudging them towards that potential, like helping people reach their full potential. So we heard all these stories, and they sounded amazing to us, but then we were like, well, let's ask people. It's one thing for the leaders to tell us that they're doing these things to create meaning, but let's go ask people if these things actually make work meaningful for them. So that was the second phase of our study. That's when we went to 1000s of people across 25 industries, and we asked them, Okay, if your leaders do X, Y and Z, you know, like these practices that we were hearing that fall under the 3c when they do this, do you feel like work is meaningful? And it was very clear that those 3c make work meaningful. Kurt Nelson 14:18 It's an interesting piece that you're talking about, and I loved how you talked about the leaders and how they're doing the different pieces of this in the work that I've done. You know, we go in and work with organizations as well. One of the things that often presents a challenge is some leaders are fully on board with some of these things, and others are not. So I'm sure you ran into leaders who are going, Why? Why do I Why should I even care about meaning, why do I need to even think about these three C's, Wes, what would you say to a leader that, if they're they're kind of having some doubts about this is like, I just need to pay people and they should just do the job that that I pay them to do. Know, as opposed to kind of building this meaning, what? What benefits does meaning have? Speaker 2 15:04 I mean, I would say to someone like that, and to be fair, like we don't encounter as many of those people as you might think these days, I think there's a much more recognition that these things are important and that they drive business results, right? Because the data is very clear on that. So if there is any question, I usually start with the data that shows that these things drive the outcomes that we're looking for, both at the employee level, engagement, productivity, well being, job satisfaction, but also at the team and at the organizational level. So things like performance, innovation, creativity, bottom line, revenue. There's amazing research, longitudinal research out of Oxford that came out last year showing that when employees are high in these meaning indicators, companies outperform in the stock market. So there's, you know, there's just a lot of data there. Now, sometimes that's not enough to convince people, because they're just like, oh, I don't believe in this soft stuff. And, you know. And so, you know, typically, in that case, if there's an opportunity, I I try to get them to use a practice, you know, and to see how that works, because I think that's very compelling. And when you see it in action, and you understand how it impacts just the, you know, like the culture and the way that people work together and and, you know, I think it's clear, like, if you're just focused on paying people and trying to have a transaction with them, they're not sticking around. They have no loyalty to you. They're not giving you their best work. They might take the job and they might stay, but it's not the money that gets them to perform at their best, or, you know, work their hardest, or come up with their best ideas. It's because they believe in what they're doing, because they think the job is meaningful. Tim Houlihan 16:56 Yeah, so this, this trend and quiet quitting could actually be reversed, or at least muted, with getting more meaning into the work, is that? Is that fair to say Wes absolutely, Speaker 2 17:08 yeah, there's a statistic that we like to quote, research from Gallup and work human that came out recently, and this is in the contribution bucket that's around, just showing people appreciation, right, for the work that they're doing, letting them know their work matters, saying thank you. And one, thank you once a week, cut disengagement and burnout in half. One, thank you once a week from a manager that was enough, right? And that because that's a meaningful moment when somebody says, hey, that work that you did, thank you for that that mattered, right? And I think less than 40% of people felt like they were appropriately recognized for their work, Kurt Nelson 17:47 which, which, again, is really always surprising whenever I see those Gallup surveys and the work human components out there, and you see the low engagement rates, and you see those things, and then you you know that there are not, I wouldn't say they're simple fixes, because it's, you know, it's an unmeaning full thank you that doesn't really, isn't a real Thank you probably doesn't have the same impact. And so you had to put some effort into it. But they're not overly challenging, you know, things like, you don't have to put a whole new, you know, technology system in that's going to cost millions of dollars, it is literally some actions that you can do as a leader. So with that, what are some other pieces that leaders can be thinking about or doing to help bring that like you said, a simple thank you every, every week, what else is there that you guys found Speaker 1 18:38 so in the in the community, see, the most powerful question that we asked in our study that predicted a sense of community was, does your leader care about what's happening in your life outside of work, not does your leader know, right? Does your leader care about and you know, people like we all want to be noticed, to be seen, right, to feel like we matter. And when a leader comes in on Monday and says, Hey, how did the weekend go? You mentioned your kid was going to be in a soccer tournament, how was a tournament? How did the team do? Right? That matters, because you're like, oh my gosh, they remembered, like, my kids soccer tournament, right? That little 32nd interaction really makes us feel seen. It makes us feel like we want to do the work, not just because of the work, but because of the people we work with, right, that we're in it for, for the team, that we're in it together. And again, those are very simple, not always easy, because we're all so busy meeting to meeting to email to putting out fires, but it makes a big difference. Yeah, Tim Houlihan 19:55 you're kind of teeing up something that was on Kurt and Kurt, in my mind. Mind when we were reading the book about that, this is a remarkable, transformational, you know, period in in work these days, how does that impact us? How? How do we if we're going through this transformation in the work world, how can we leverage meaning in a way that it can positively impact our employee experience, and, of course, the effectiveness of our organizations as well. Speaker 2 20:27 I think this is a really, I mean, you said transformational. I think we're sort of realizing, with all the confluence of factors coming together, you know, remote and hybrid, that we're still figuring out all the different generations in the workplace, AI completely disrupting people strategy and org design, not Not to mention, like crazy things happening in the economy and the and the political sphere. You know, we're really, you know, it's clear that the old model of work doesn't work anymore, right? This is a model that was based on it's the Ford factory model. We've been iterating on it for 100 years, and it was really good at having a group of people do one task over and over again, and another group of people supervise that group of people to make sure that they were doing it correctly over and over again, right? And that's the model that we use. All of the organizations that currently exist have iterated on that model to some degree, right? And I think if we take a step back and we look at, how can we use the tools that we have, and how can we take what we know about what motivates people, and also the future of work, which isn't about doing the same thing over and over and over again, right? What worked yesterday is definitely not going to work tomorrow. And so for that, we need, we need the most human of skills to succeed. We need innovation, creativity. We need people who are resilient, who are adaptable. And if we want to unlock those high level human skills, we need to give people a reason to show up, to really fully engage, to work hard and to stretch themselves to the limits of their capabilities. And for that, we need work to be meaningful. Kurt Nelson 22:12 Hey, Groovers, quick break from the conversation to talk about something we don't bring up enough on the show. Tim Houlihan 22:17 Yeah, that's right. When we're not behind the mic, we're working with organizations to apply behavioral science in ways that actually move the needle for leaders, teams and whole cultures. Kurt Nelson 22:29 So whether it's designing smarter incentives, boosting engagement, setting goals that actually stick, or helping teams navigate change, we bring real science to real workplace challenges, Tim Houlihan 22:40 and we don't just talk theory. Our approach blends research backed insights with hands on strategies that drive results, and we've seen small behavioral shifts lead to big wins in Fortune 500 companies and scrappy startups, and even in mission driven nonprofits. Kurt Nelson 22:57 Yeah, and we bring the same curiosity, creativity and care to our client work that we bring to every episode of the show. Really, I think Tim Houlihan 23:06 people might want more than what we bring to the show. Kurt Nelson 23:11 You probably have a point there. You're probably right. Tim Houlihan 23:15 Okay, so we'll bring more care and creativity to our work with you and your teams than what we do on the show. Kurt Nelson 23:21 Yes, more care so. So if you're ready to build stronger motivation, better team dynamics, and maybe even make your workplace a little more groovy, Tim Houlihan 23:31 yeah, reach out to us. Grab us on LinkedIn or Facebook or just drop us a line. We'd love to help you and your team find your groove. You Kurt Nelson 23:43 I think that is absolutely I think key is you're bringing this up. And I really, really liked how that was going one piece in the book that I really liked. And Tamara. Tamara you, you said this idea about a virtuous cycle that you observe during productivity consulting, where meaningful work led to more energy and more productivity. And that just hit me, that idea that it was this, it's not just like getting meaning and then you're it's like it kept building on itself. And so could you help our listeners understand what you meant by that and how that happens? Speaker 1 24:20 Yeah, so, you know, before diving into the research and studying meaningful work, I had spent 15 years doing productivity consulting. I had written my first book on a productivity model, and I was working with leaders on setting up systems, you know, within organizations to kind of help unlock productivity. And it was really interesting, because, you know, like for me, the way I view productivity, and have always viewed productivity, is not just about doing more things in less time, which is kind of like the common narrative around productivity, the toxic kind of, you know, productivity, but it was, it's always about doing more. Of what matters, getting the important things done right in the time that we have. And so I was noticing that the organizations that I worked with, those individuals, all of a sudden had more mind space, more clarity. They weren't just always reacting and putting out fires, but they were able to focus on those things that matter most. They were they were able to do strategic planning and, you know, organizational culture, or whatever it was for them, and sometimes it was even in their personal lives that they were able to volunteer or spend more time with their family. So they really focused on on those things that mattered most. And then what happened is that they became much more energized. They were much more engaged. They really wanted to show up, and they they just showed up differently. They didn't just show up, right? They lit up and and then they were more productive, and they were getting more things that matter done, and then they were feeling more energized and more and it was this cycle, and I was, I was really curious to to understand the science behind that. I didn't really know that there was a whole science of meaningful work. You know, in my first book, I called it possibility, like, all these possibilities are opening up, like, what is this? And so that's, you know, that's what I saw in action. And then went back to graduate school to study what became meaningful work. And then I saw that in the data. And then we see this every time, like we work with leaders, and they unlock this meaning, and it really has a lasting effect as well. You know, sometimes you because meaning is is not just about intensity. Sometimes you have, like, a very intense, meaningful moment, but it's also about frequency. Wes was talking about these everyday moments that matter, right? And both really, both really add up to kind of fuel our motivation. I just Tim Houlihan 27:00 want to say it's a pretty high level of curiosity to ask a question and say I'm going to go to grad school to answer. Speaker 2 27:08 Curiosity is definitely like tomorrow, like most people Speaker 1 27:12 strengths, signature character strengths, I found out at map as well. Tim Houlihan 27:16 There you go. It's like most people are curious. So they pick up the phones like, Oh, I'm going to get an answer to that right now and then just move on. Kurt Nelson 27:23 That's Google this. I'm done. There you go. No, get a graduate degree on this. That's Tim Houlihan 27:28 great. Yeah, that is very impressive. Kurt Nelson 27:32 Did either of you look and so in this virtuous cycle piece, you talk about how it works in different pieces, but what any research or any looking into the psychological mechanisms around why that happens. And I don't know. I don't remember reading that in the book, but if there was, that's Speaker 2 27:49 a great question. Tamara, I don't know if we I mean, I think in other like some of the other things we learned in positive psychology, there's evidence for that circular reinforcement of, you know, you you feel good when you do something, and so you keep doing that thing that makes you feel good, or, you know, one thing unlocks another. But, Speaker 1 28:12 I mean, there's broaden and build, right, which is, I think, what you're talking about. So the broaden and build theory of positive emotions from Barbara Fredrickson, it states that positive emotions, right, broaden our perspective, our repertoire, and then over time, it builds our resources. And so let's say we experience fulfillment, right, meaning something really kind of sparks we let's say we met a beneficiary of our work, right? So maybe we are working at a biotech company developing drugs, and we got to meet a patient whose life was changed for the better because of a drug we have spent years developing, right? That's one of the intense moments of meaning, right? When we when we have that experience, we feel all elevation. There's a suite of positive emotions. What happens is that that when we experience positive emotions, it builds our resources over time. For example, when we feel awe or gratitude, we tend to become closer with people. We build better relationships. Those relationships help us perform better over time, right? We also become more curious. Then we go and do some research on something, and then that research helps us build our repertoire of practices and tools over time. And so maybe, I mean, this is just us positing here. I'm not sure if there's a link, but, but maybe that's one of the psychological mechanisms in place. Yeah, Tim Houlihan 29:46 you actually use Marty Seligman and Chris Peterson's character tool towards the end of the book. Thought that that was actually pretty cool, if people are not familiar with the. The the via, via classification and Character Strengths model, which I think is, you know, pretty, I don't know if it's groundbreaking, but it's really well done. Let me just say that they, these guys, did fantastic work on it. Can you tell listeners who are not familiar with it, a little bit about that resource and why, why it's so important at the end of the book to have this capstone concept Speaker 2 30:23 in on that. But Tamara is really our resident, via expert, so well, then Tim Houlihan 30:29 what are you even trying with you? Speaker 2 30:37 So via is a set of 24 character strengths. So these are strengths that are valued across cultures and across time that was come to after a period of a number of years of research from, like you said, Marty Seligman and Chris Peterson, who are some of the founders of positive psychology. And these are kind of innate strengths that we have that tend to be easy energizing for us. They're easy to use, and they're kind of core to who we are. So when you take the via classification, it's different than, like, a Strengths Finder or something else, which is about how you show up at work. This is more about who you are and like, what you're naturally good at, right? And it sort of gives you your top five or so strengths, which are your signature strengths. And these are the things like I said, that are kind of easy, essential, energizing, and that are really the ones that, if you can use every day, if you can figure out how to leverage these things in a meaningful way. They give you energy, you know, rather than taking them away. So for example, like Tamara, using her strength of curiosity and going to grad school, while that sounds like a lot of work to some people, was super energizing for her, I know because I was there with her, and, you know, and for me as well, Curiosity is one of my top strengths, also, right? And so that's hard work, but it's energizing hard work because you're really getting to do something that kind of like matters to you. So I think it's a really valuable tool that we often use in our consulting work to kick things off and to help people identify what they're good at and what things they can be leaning into more fully at work, and also help them see each other and how they share some strengths and how they complement each other in different ways. And so it's, it's pretty powerful. And what did I miss Tamara? Well, Tim Houlihan 32:40 nice try. That was a nice try. Well done. Kurt Nelson 32:44 Let's get the experts. Speaker 2 32:48 I've been studying her for years, and so I think I've got it, Speaker 1 32:52 yeah, well, I get the benefit of being an instructor in the program. So every year when Ryan niemeck, who you know who works at via, who's the lead scientist there? When he comes in to teach the students, I get to hear it all over again, and so, so, so that's why Wes thinks that I am the resident expert. But the only thing I will say another key differentiator between the via and other strengths assessments is the fact that it is the only peer reviewed and research driven assessment there is. There's over 1000 studies, and they're all published on the via website that you know. The study these strengths in different applications, at school, at work, in life, at parenting. And so it's very well researched tool. There's a lot of data to support Kurt Nelson 33:47 it as a tool, yeah, which is one of the things I think is really valuable about it, not just a Oh, we did a couple surveys, and here you go, here's here's your strengths, and various different pieces around that. So again, for all of our listeners, we'll put a link to that in the show notes, and so you can go out and take a look at it and kind of explore around it. I wanted to get into a different part. A you bring up a wonderful in the book, you bring up all these great examples of actual workplaces and various different things. One of the stories that caught, I think both Tim and my eye was story about Ritz Carlton and their historic great customer experience. And you give this example of really top notch guest service, especially when it comes to a push giraffe for a little boy. Do either of you want to talk about that story? Because it just kind of encapsulates, I think, a lot of what you guys are talking about, Speaker 2 34:44 that's a really fun story. And it was, it was fun. Also, we got a chance to interview Chris Hearn, who was the, you know, the the subject of that story. And so essentially, his family was going on vacation to the Ritz in the Ritz Carl. In Amelia, Island, Florida, and he couldn't make it. He had to go to on a business trip, but he met the family back at home. And when he did, when his wife got back with his son, it it quickly became apparent that the favorite stuffed animal, a giraffe named Joshy, was not with them. And so, you know, he was young, and I think anyone with kids can relate to the fact that, you know, he had a total meltdown, right? He totally lost his mind. And so Chris, in an effort to sort of like, calm him down, told him, Oh, he must be like, have stayed for a couple of extra vacation days at the Ritz, you know, and, and so that sort of worked. And then he called the manager, and was like, Do you have you found this? Like, can you help me out here? And the manager is like, yeah, we got it, and we'll ship it to you. And he's like, Thank you, you know, like, I told my son, you know that the giraffe was taking a couple of extra vacation days or whatever. And so a couple days later, package arrives. It's got Joshy, the giraffe in it, and, you know, the sun is very happy, but it also has this full photo album of the rest of Josh's vacation. So they had taken pictures of, you know, the giraffes, like at the beach tanning. You know, he's like, with some other plush animal friends in the bar having some drinks. He's got cucumbers on his eyes. And the spa, you know, like, with an actual person giving him a massage. So, so they, like, took that idea and really ran with it and turned it into a real story. And, you know, at the end of the day, it was like, the the kid was like, Oh, sure, that's cool, but it really meant a lot to the dad that they had kind of like, made the, you know, made his little white lie come true. And we tell that story because it's a really great example of how the Ritz Carlton empowers their employees to do things for guests, to solve problems or to or to see opportunities and do something amazing to create these memorable experiences. So they have this set of values that they teach everyone who works at the Ritz, no matter what level you are, you know in the organization, you have to abide by these core values of the Ritz Carlton, and then you are empowered to do anything that you think is right, to serve guests. And you're also given a budget of $2,000 per incident to do whatever you want, no questions asked. So you don't have to go ask a manager for permission. You don't have to do whatever. So if you see an opportunity like that, like you can just run and go, go make a thing you can pay to have the photo album made. You know, do all of that stuff and ship it off. And you don't have to take to tell anybody about that. And so it's an example of what we call balanced autonomy, really empowering people within the boundaries and guidelines of organizational values to do their work in the way that they think is best. And it creates this, you know, this is in sort of the challenge bucket. It's an opportunity for them to try new things, to experiment, to grow, to stretch, and to really perform in a way that actually benefits the company, because they're getting all these new and interesting ideas that they wouldn't if they were just like in the Ford factory model, telling people this is how you have to do things over and over again. Kurt Nelson 38:20 It really is very example. Yeah, that would have never happened if, if whoever you know, took that call and then went and did this had to go up three layers to get approval. No, it would have just, it would have it would have been a too long. It would have never happened. And so you, you can't have those experiences without that, you know, autonomy, as you talk about. And I think it's a really, really key piece, and I thought it was really highlighted really, really well in the book. Speaker 1 38:47 Also being a think about being a Ritz Carlton employee that had that idea and rallied all of their coworkers and like, my god, let's do that. Imagine the fun of like, posting the giraffe, putting the cucumbers, you know? So you're getting to use your creativity. You're connecting with the coworkers. You're imagining how special it's going to be when Joshy arrives at the photo album. You're and so it's also, like, the experience of doing it also generates community, right? Fun. And, I mean, I I think about that all the time, like, how awesome to be there creating that photo album. Like I want to do. I want to do that, you know? Kurt Nelson 39:23 Well, even just, I mean, imagine, like the people that are around when the when the stuffed animal is in the spa with the cucumbers, you just, you have to smile and laugh, right? And I don't care if you're an employee, if you're a guest there, whatever it is, you have to do that. And that's, yeah, you Speaker 2 39:42 know, what can I say something about of else about that story? Because I think it actually comes full circle as well. So the Joshi story is legendary among Ritz Carlton employees, and it's actually a story that they use to tell people, to tell new employees, this is what it's like to work around here. Yeah, you know, like, this is what our culture is like, and that, you know, there's a section of the book where we focus on recruiting and onboarding and how early cues and early practices really set the tone for the life of someone's tenure with an organization, and can be very meaningful in a way that lasts over time, right? And that sort of cultural mastery, you know, that idea of bringing people in and showing them what it's about to work here, is a really powerful part of like bringing them into the fold, bringing them into the community early, and they're like, see, this is the kind of thing that you can do here. This is what we value, right? So, telling those stories, so it wasn't just great for, you know, the that one client, right? This is something that continues to pay dividends over and over again, for years, Tim Houlihan 40:47 well, and in this case, this is a great example, because, as you mentioned, Ritz Carlton has this rich history of of doing this kind of thing, like their their organizational structure and their policies are closely aligned with the story. And tomorrow, I was wondering if you could just talk to the importance of that rather than having this disconnect of, well, this is the policy, but yeah, this is kind of how we actually do things. Speaker 1 41:12 Yeah, that is the number one meaning killer, and it's really hard to recover actually, like we we, I think we have Chapter Three of the book right. The foundation of meaningful work like this is really foundational. None of the other practices really work if you don't have this alignment between the words on the wall and how things are actually done around here. And they came up again and again and again in our research, right? And we've all, I think, had this experience some point in our lives where, you know the words on the wall are like, Oh, teamwork is really important around here. Or transparency. We value transparency. And then you are like, Well, then why is everybody whispering behind closed doors, like, what's happening? Like, am I gonna get fired? Like, what is going on, right? And so that is, is really important for all the other practices to work. And one of the best examples that we heard from the leaders that we interviewed for this came from Rob Waldron, who was the CEO of curriculum associates. It's a an organization that provides curriculum for K through 12 students around the around the country and and he talked about how important it is. You know, they have a value driven organization. They have their values listed on the website, and we were asking about the stories behind the values, and like, how do you actually ensure that you're living these values? And so then he told us about his wedding day. So he got married in Rhode Island on a cliff walk under a tent, and it just happened to be one of the rainiest days in Rhode Island history. Kurt Nelson 43:04 This was a great story. This was a great story. Yeah, his wedding Speaker 1 43:07 day, and the wedding planner was there, and him and his bride to be, they were all kind of upset about the wedding. You know, you invest so much time, energy, money, you have to dream about what your wedding day is going to be like. And leading up to it, you're looking at the forecast, and it's a lot looking good, and the anxiety is building. And then the day comes, and the forecast is even worse than it was. And so you're there, you're about to get married, freaking out. You're like, oh, this is going to be terrible. The guests are not going to come, nobody's gonna stay. The party's gonna suck. And the wedding planner pulled him aside and said, Only one person can ruin this wedding, and it's the bride. All eyes will be on you. If you go out and you dance in the rain and you, you know, have fun and you don't worry about the mud, you will give everyone permission to laugh about it, to have fun with you, to dance and get muddy. But if you are anxious about it and nervous and apologetic, then it will make everyone anxious and nervous, and no one will have fun, because everyone follows the bride. Yeah, right. And so that's what they did. They had fun. They danced in the mud. Her dress got all dirty, and it was one of the best days of their lives, and it was very memorable. And so Rob always thinks about that when he leads and when he needs to role model, and when there are competing values, right? Maybe transparency, or maybe clients first and teamwork are competing. He thinks about that. Everyone follows the bride. All eyes are on me, right? Because the bride is the leader of the wedding, right? He, as a CEO, is the leader of the organization. And he made a point to explain decisions when there were competing values, when. And when you say, you know, you know, our people come first, and when you care about teamwork and all of that, but sometimes you have to work all night, for several nights, to meet a client deadline, because client also comes first, right? How do you explain that? And as long as you use Spotlight, it's a practice we call spotlighting in the in the book, and we actually have a free spotlighting worksheet on our website if people want to go through it, but it's really about explaining the decision and how you're upholding your values and why. Right now it means that we're going to really focus on clients first, and we're going to let teamwork take a back seat. But after we deliver this, this is really important. And this is why, after we deliver it, we're going to do, you know, this, to build our team up again. Or, you know, we're going to give everybody day off, or we're going to do a team of take everybody out to lunch, whatever it is, but just being really intentional and explaining it, but, but we just love the everyone follows the bride story Kurt Nelson 45:58 it, and you bring it back up a couple times in the book. And it's really, it is powerful when we think about that simple message. And there's an there's a behavioral science principle called anchoring, where we tend to anchor in on different things and and again, you can anchor in on the emotional component of this. And so as you were talking about this, that was what was going through my head, that that that bride, that leader is that anchor, and so whatever, however they're looking at something is going to we know emotions are contagious, and so we know that that will transfer in. And then it's just a wonderful kind of illustration of the power that people have, and particularly leaders have, in those types of situations. So yeah, it was great. Tim Houlihan 46:43 There's I wanted to switch over to, and I'm just going to say, right now, tomorrow, I'm going to pick on you first on this music question, because, because, because you admitted that you did. You have a guitar in your house. Speaker 1 46:56 I do collecting dust. Oh, Tim Houlihan 47:00 fair enough. Fair enough. My personal encouragement is just dust it off a little bit, just one day. Just dust it off. You don't even have to pick it up. Just dust it off and then see what happens the next day. But if you were to be stuck on a desert island for a year and you had a listening device, but that listening device could only have two artists on it. Now it's their whole catalog, not just one song, everything that they've ever recorded. What two artists would you take with you? Okay, so by the way, I just have to say I love the look on Wes face. Unknown Speaker 47:35 I'm so glad that Tamara got that question and not Tim Houlihan 47:40 answer it, well, it's coming at you. Wes you're next. Okay, Speaker 1 47:43 so what I love the most about music is lyrics, right? I love I'm a word person. I love poetry. And so lyrics is, what are, what really speak to me in a song. And so there are two artists that that I would bring one is a Brazilian artist, Mariza Monti. I love her library, and her songs are beautiful. And then the other one is very cliche, but it's Taylor Swift. I have two teenage daughters, and we listen to Taylor Swift a lot, and we've gone to a bunch of concerts together, and I just love her music, like her poetry, her lyrics, the metaphor she uses, and I actually listen to it a lot for inspiration in my own writing. So and then my husband always says, why are you writing books? Instead of writing songs like we could have the trillions of dollars. Go write some songs Tim Houlihan 48:40 just be the next Taylor Swift Kurt Nelson 48:42 it's so simple, so simple. Yeah, well, there has to be something with that too, that you have that my, my child, also big Taylor Swifty and and, you know, there's, there is that connect. I haven't had a chance to go to a concert, but you do have those shared memories too, that that also elicits, even just probably listening to that music, probably brings back some of those feelings and elements of having that time with your with your children, Speaker 1 49:11 exactly, especially as they all start leaving the nest. Kurt, we have one Kurt Nelson 49:17 off in college and and the other freshmen in high school. So, yeah, Tim Houlihan 49:20 yeah, okay, Wes, you're on the hot seat, man, you got two artists. What are you gonna take with you? So Speaker 2 49:28 I'm gonna, I have a little recency bias here, because I just watched a complete unknown, which is the Bob Dylan biopic, and Tim Houlihan 49:39 I've not want to take Timothy Chalamet with you. Speaker 2 49:43 Is that an option? Yeah, I you know, like, I'm familiar with his music, but I wasn't, you know, like I didn't know as much about him as probably I should have. And so I've done a little more digging since then, and I. Think just the like the writing, the poetry of it, and the, you know, there, it sort of spans so many his catalog spans so many, you know, styles. And so I feel like that would be if I was in a desert island and I could only have one person's catalog. First of all, it's a really extensive catalog. Yeah, I don't get bored, and it's varied and it's beautiful. And so I feel like that would be a solid choice, if you had to pick only a couple. I'm also, like, a really big Guns and Roses fan, and so I think I'd probably have to, I'd have to have that. I don't know if I could go the rest of my life without listening to Sweet Child of Mine, Kurt Nelson 50:39 little Axel rose in there and slash, yeah, there you go. I love the idea, though, of bringing Dylan, because, as you said, he has such a wide range, and it is so in depth. And if you're not familiar with it, part of what I like about music is, is the discovery part. And so like, when you know Tim and I have asked ourselves this question. And when we've had different things, and oftentimes I bring in somebody who's maybe newer to me, because I want to be able to hear something for the first time, maybe, or hear something and really dig into it and and, you know, tomorrow, I'm also a lyrics person, so Tim, Tim will go with the classical stuff, and I go out. I don't get that. There's no words. I don't know how you can do that so well that Tim Houlihan 51:24 always but Speaker 2 51:25 there is a language to it, you know, that's Tim Houlihan 51:29 true. Well said, true. Well said Wes, yeah, yeah. Oh, Tamara, Wes. Thank you so much. It's been really wonderful having you guys as guests on behaviors today. Thanks. Thanks for joining us. Thanks so much Unknown Speaker 51:42 for having a great conversation. Really, it was fun. Kurt Nelson 51:51 Welcome to our grooving session where Tim and I share ideas on what we learned from our discussion with Wes and Tamara have a free flowing conversation and groove on whatever else comes into our following the bride. Tim Houlihan 52:02 Brains, following the bride. Wow. Okay, so that wasn't exactly where I thought you were going, but you're kind of following up on the comment about everybody follows the bride like they're looking for the bride's emotional well being at the wedding to see how she's doing. Kurt Nelson 52:21 Follow the bride, right? That the brain and the emotions that we get and how we think, and so again, we follow the leader. That's the that's the piece. We follow those people that are up in front. And our brains instinctively, naturally do that, which is that, am Tim Houlihan 52:44 I? No, I do. I absolutely do. From the negative side, we've got the Bobo effect of when, you know, when idiots come into play and and act as leaders. People follow along with that, and and then we have the more virtuous side as well. So I think that there's, there's definitely great examples on both sides. Okay, Kurt Nelson 53:08 in case any of our listeners don't know the Bobo effect, explain the Bobo doll and what you're talking about there. So Tim Houlihan 53:15 I think it was a study done in the 60s, possibly late 50s or 1960s where it was it's about growth and the psychological learning, early childhood development stuff. And the researchers brought a bunch of kids into a room to play, and they have a whole bunch of toys, and so they're just playing. And, you know, these are like six to eight year olds, I think, and the general age kids float around and play with different toys and and then they have a Confederate come in, an adult come in, and there's a, there's a towel that, a towel doll that they call the Bobo doll, that was a tall, air filled thing with the sand on the bottom, so you could hit it, and it would, it would spring right back, because the sand on the bottom would cause it. And so they'd have this adult would come in and punch the Bobo doll really aggressively, really hard, really mean, and just really beat the daylights out of it. And then leave. And then they would just observe to see if there were any kids that followed that and that. The fact was, they did that there were a bunch of kids, mostly boys, of course that followed along. And when there was that example of the Confederate coming in and beating up the Bobo doll, kids were more willing to be aggressive, not only with the Bobo doll, but with each other, compared to when there was no example of a Confederate coming in and being an ass, then the kids were fine. And so when we if we have a leader who is an ass who likes to beat up the Bobo doll, it's very possible that there's going to be people in the organization who go, that's okay. I can do Kurt Nelson 54:56 that. Yeah. And I mean, you. And you look at organizations, and you can tell a lot about that organization and the culture and the people that are attracted to it, but also then what we are primed to do by the actions of those leaders, and we follow the bride. We follow that up there. And to your point, this is both on the negative side as well as on the virtuous side. So it's not all doom and gloom, but we do know that emotions are contagious. We do know that people look up to their leader as the example that they need to follow, and we can drive what that culture is often by just making sure that the leader is doing the right thing. So, yeah, yeah, Tim Houlihan 55:55 it very much. Okay. So what? What struck you about this, about this conversation you want to groove on. Kurt Nelson 56:01 Kurt, well, I like the bride thing. You know, obviously there was that. I think there's a lot of interest a First off, fantastic conversation. Wes and Tamara are fantastic, wonderful, insightful people, bringing in all sorts of great examples. Their book was really good. I really enjoyed that conversation. One of the things that struck me, and I found really interesting on this, and it was one of these contrast and compare kind of things right, is that the 3c this idea of community, connection, no connection. A challenge, challenge and contribution. Yeah. How that aligns with the four drive model, which we've talked about on the show before, and is one of the the models that I often use. You use it as well in in work with clients, this idea that employees are motivated by four underlying drives. Obviously, there's more than that, but when you kind of look at things, there's four key underlying drives, and those drives, which was developed by Lawrence and Nuria, two Harvard psychology professors, back in the early 2000s late 90s, early, 2000s and so those four drives are acquire and achieve, which is about the rewards that we get. We do things right this, if you're thinking about motivation and engagement, we do things because we get paid. We get a bonus. We have incentives. We can earn the gold star, whatever it would be. It's achievement and recognition as well. All of that is there. Then there's bond and belong. Bonding and belonging is we're social creatures, and we we want to feel like we're part of a team and that we have close relationships with those people we work with, and we will do a lot to maintain those positive relationships. The third is challenge and comprehend, which is that we're driven to, we're novelty seeking. We're challenge seeking. We want to learn. We have all of these desires of making sure that we're we're growing and kind of expanding into this idea. I've often described it as my video game, right? I keep going. I go in a video game, and I get level one, and it's hard, and finally I overcome it and I get level one, so I can do it over and over again. If I get to level two, and it's the same challenge, I'm not going to have the it's like, I'm going to get bored with that really quickly, because it really may be a challenge. It won't be a challenge anymore, right? So we get bored if there's not a challenge. And then lastly is define and defend, which is, hey, we were we were tribal. We defend the tribe. We don't have tribes. So organizations can become a surrogate tribe. But also within that is the define. And the define is, we're going to more likely defend the tribe if we identify with the tribe, if our purpose aligns with that, with the organization's purpose. So it's understanding our purpose and different pieces of that. So I Tim Houlihan 59:10 just want to say for listeners, if you're not familiar with the four drive model, what Kurt just laid out is is an example of really great work by Nitin or but, but it's also it follows the ABCD. So if, if you weren't paying attention, it is a, b, c, d, these are the four drives. So it makes it a little easier to remember as we go through. Okay. But the point of you bringing this up is because you saw some you saw some connected sub Kurt Nelson 59:45 the three C's, if you look at this right, community aligns really well with bond and belong. There is, there is a lot of overlap within that component of it. Contribution is around that part. Purpose, right? There's an element of purpose. It's also could be seen as part of challenge. But challenge is rightly aligned. I mean, it uses the same challenge, it brings that in. So when they were talking about it, I kept kind of going back and looking to see, you know, there is a lot of overlap. And is there Contra, you know, is there anything that that stands out that's a little bit different? And I think there, there isn't a lot from those three. Obviously, the 3c don't have the acquire and achieve in it. They also don't have the defend part in it, and maybe not as much in the idea of the challenge and comprehend about the learning aspect, the the kind of novelty seeking piece that we we do that kind of has been brought out by the four drives or the actually, the original four drives don't have some of those in it. It's been redone by work that we've done, as well as others in in this area, to kind of expand that, because we saw that it was missing a couple pieces. So, Tim Houlihan 1:01:06 but what, what all of these do, what these four drives do is they do add meaning to work. They make they help provide that platform for making work meaningful, right? Like this is, this is important. It's not so much that there's meaning. There's always meaning in everything that that each drive represents, but they absolutely provide the foundation for someone deriving meaning from their work. Yes, you've you've also done some research to indicate that that the more a company can hit on all four of those those cylinders, the more the greater benefit that they get from it, right, that the employees get from it as well. Yeah. And this aligns again with something that, Kurt Nelson 1:01:51 you know tomorrow, I think yeah. And yeah. West might have said it as well, but this idea that if one of those sees is missing, it can have a net, it can actually backfire on the other two. In other words, it can, it can bring down. That's the similar component that they saw with four drives. Is to this degree, there was a Harvard business reviews article with Noria groinsburg, and I'm drawing a blank on the third author on that, I apologize where they had done some work with this. And so they took the four drives and they put it into organizations, measured some different things, and what they found is that, you know, a 1% increase in the organizational kind of satisfaction of any one of the drives. So if it was acquire and achieve, if it was bond and belong, defend and define, they would get about a three to 4% increase in motivation or engagement. However they measured that. What happened, though, was that when they got a 1% increase across all four of them, there was an exponential impact. So all of a sudden it wasn't just three plus three plus three plus three, and you get a 12% increase in productivity. You saw a 30 plus percent increase in productivity. So it's this idea that the one lacking actually pulls the other ones back down. But when you have all four, you get this exponential impact on this. And I think it's the same thing that they were talking about Wesson and Tamara were talking about in the three C's. It's a great Tim Houlihan 1:03:33 example of the virtuous cycle that they talked about, where I think that what this, what their work does is remind us that the old school model for management of I'm paying you enough. I've got a decent benefit package for you as an employee, and I've got a decent place to work. Just do the damn job that that model of thinking needs to just be gone from our lexicon. There's no reason today to be thinking that if you just pay someone enough to do whatever job you want them to do, that they're going to be happy and will do the best job that they can the virtue the virtuous cycle indicates that providing meaningful work, especially as you're talking about it with the four drives, you get enhanced productivity management benefits from having meaning people doing meaningful work and having a good place to do it. Kurt Nelson 1:04:31 And I find, still to this day, I this week, not not you know, we're doing interviews with some some clients and talking with like the Chief Commercial off, actually chief growth officer of a company, and top sales guy, basically top guy, right one of the just below the CEO. And in that conversation with him, it was. Because, well, we're paying them a salary, and they just that should be just you know, that should be enough for them. And then we only you know. And it was this very Unknown Speaker 1:05:14 old school Kurt Nelson 1:05:17 we're paying you do as you're told. These other responsibilities that you have as an employee, and because of this contract that we have, that we're paying you a base salary, you get an opportunity and an incentive and different things that that is more than enough, and we don't have to think about anything else. And if and if you are, then you know, why are you working here? And just, yeah, you Tim Houlihan 1:05:48 know this, this, we're paying you enough, so just do the damn job. Isn't just like a 1950s idea. It's like an 1850s idea. It's like, Come on, get on board with the way the world is actually working. People want more out of their employers. They want more out of the work that they're doing. Kurt Nelson 1:06:08 And there's this, and I'm making a big jump, big kind of leap of kind of what I think is many times people from that at the top of the organization are looking at an organizational perspective, and they're understanding, hey, if we do this, that multiply the amount of time is going to take for managers to really focus in on this. And they're not focusing in on the job, and they're not focusing in on the numbers. Or if we have to reward or recognize people, or we give people more time to bond and belong, maybe have, you know, more get togethers or various different things, there's a financial cost to this, and that's not what I'm being rewarded for. I'm being rewarded for this outcome, and so I can save money off of that bottom line by not doing these types of things. And, oh, by the way, I don't see it in myself as being, you know, I'm finding my own meaning here, and I'm getting this, well, that's the other big thing is everybody isn't wired the same, and so we have to understand that the way that we show up at work isn't how everybody else Tim Houlihan 1:07:27 shows up at work exactly. I also was just thinking of data that we've seen from Gallup over the years, as a survey, organization has done a lot on employee engagement, and they discovered that a thank you note once a week, some kind of minimal recognition to employees, can reduce dissatisfaction and burnout by half, by half. It's a tremendous, tremendous statistic that when you think about something as simple as just saying, Hey, I noticed you're doing a good job this week. Thank Thanks for Thanks for doing it good, good work. Kurt Nelson 1:08:05 And it needs to be genuine. It can't just be oh, this is Friday. I write my thank you note, and I'm just all right, Tim, it's your turn this week, you know? Boom, here we go. It needs to be meaningful. And we I always say people have a really good bullshit detector, right? So if you are saying something, it needs to be genuine. It needs to come from somewhere. Now it doesn't have to be groundbreaking. Like, oh my gosh, Tim, you did the most fantastic job ever. But Tim, I really appreciate you know how you put together the notes for this week. For what we're we're grooving on. It was fantastic, and I appreciate that. Tim Houlihan 1:08:45 Yeah, I remember interviewing a senior leader at an organization that said, I don't know what the problem is, because I thank everyone on my team every single week, every Friday, everybody gets a thank you for me. I was like, really? I said, Tell me about that. And he said, I sent out an email to the entire team, so, you know, 20 Some people report to me, and I say, thanks for doing a great job this week. Like, that's like, dude, if you think that's enough, you're we really like, you need some kind of a psychological exam, because you're missing it big time. Kurt Nelson 1:09:20 Okay, so what else? What else, Tim, did you find interesting from because, again, I think one of the really insightful things for me is really doubling down on some of these 3c now, and particularly as they relate to this, and bringing that meaning part into, you know, the work that I'm doing with organizations and different things, I'm going to take this and really use this moving forward Tim Houlihan 1:09:47 so well, yeah, so I love that. You know, we've talked a lot about the contribution side and the importance of recognizing employees, but there's also something about that, that challenge. Challenge part, right? The challenge part is really important in the three C's, and it's important in the in the four drive as well, because we need to feel like we're not just doing the same thing over and over again. We're not on treadmill, we're not we're not finishing level one, and then we're restarting level one. They're Kurt Nelson 1:10:18 calling it level two, but it's the same it's the same treadmill. It's the same treadmill. Tim Houlihan 1:10:24 That's not good. We need managers have a responsibility to think about the way we challenge employees in a way that allows people to stretch, to get them to go beyond where Kurt Nelson 1:10:36 they are. And sometimes that's not just saying you have to do more. Yeah, this is an interesting piece, and this is one of the things I I think people misinterpret this. It's not like, oh, and think about this in sales. It's really easy to think about, Oh, you did 100 units last month. Now you have to do 110 this month. Now there's always going to be that growth component, different things. That's not always the challenge we're talking about. I mean, the challenge might be about how do I get in and see these these customers? The challenge might be about learning a different role within the organization, and so that we can maybe have people who can cover for somebody else. The role the challenge might be about learning some new skill that will help me, maybe not sell directly, maybe not do anything else. Maybe it's a communication skill. Maybe it's something else. There are so many different ways to tap into that challenge piece, and I think organizations get myopic in how they think about it, and that doesn't serve them well, absolutely, Tim Houlihan 1:11:53 absolutely, couldn't agree more with that, yep, okay, Kurt Nelson 1:11:59 anything else. There was something, and I can't remember who said it is that they didn't just show up, they lit up. And it was talking, I think it was tomorrow, when she said that, yeah, it was about meaningful work isn't just emotionally rewarding, it just it dropped. They they lit up. That's a cool, interesting thing. And have you, I mean, have you been in an organization where you see that? I have. I mean, I've seen it where, where it is. And, you know, it's fascinating when you see that happen. So Tim Houlihan 1:12:33 I've seen it in time to time on the teams that I've been a part of, you know, organizations that I've been in, not consistently, but it's there. And the I think the really successful organizations get more of that on a regular basis, because they're laying the foundation for the 3c to happen. Kurt Nelson 1:12:52 Yeah. So I think maybe just talking about some maybe practical applications we already talked about, hey, the element that you talked about recognizing people, but you know, the other piece that you can do is just get to know the person on a different level than just work, particularly if you're a manager, showing that they're seen, that they have, that they are human, and not just one piece of the cog and the machinery that we're doing. And I will take that not just as your immediate manager, but if you are a senior leader, this is key, and too often you people feel like they're too busy. I don't have the time to go down two three levels below where I am to actually get to meet these people. And yet we know, and we've seen this on, you know, presidents club trips with top salespeople and different things. The one of the biggest rewards that people get is that I got to be seen and hear heard and talk with the executives. And that has so much motivation, so much engagement capability, it's huge. So, yeah, absolutely. What else? No practical application. Tim, well, Tim Houlihan 1:14:15 again, you mentioned that we've, we've talked about, you know, recognizing people being authentic in their recognition. And then I just want to reinforce the stretch goals, this idea of really giving people challenges with meaningful guardrails, by the way, you know, let I think that unrealistic challenges of, if you can just go out and just do this amazing work, you know, will love you for it, or don't cut someone loose just to be in the wild west or on some kind of unknown frontier. Support them, give them opportunities to to succeed, right? Yeah. Kurt Nelson 1:14:53 I Tim Houlihan 1:14:55 love having, having this idea of of set people up for success. Success. Yeah, Kurt Nelson 1:15:01 set set them up for Yeah, make it easy for him. One thing again, we'll put a link to the via Character Strengths Assessment in the show notes. So if you're a employee, we definitely go out identify that helps you identify your energizing strengths. And even as a leader, go ahead and I think it's a great opportunity to go out and do that. But yeah, with that, anything else, Shall we wrap up the grooving part of this episode? Tim, yes, so just Tim Houlihan 1:15:35 keep in mind that the 3c this idea of community contribution and challenge. They don't just build better teams. They are the building blocks of better people. Kurt Nelson 1:15:45 I like that. How about that? Yeah, and research shows it's really, you know, just a simple thank you, asking about who they are, getting the stretch goal. And it doesn't always have to be, you know, a stretch goal of more and more and more. It can be expand, kind of looking outward and wider, as opposed to narrow and further. And you know, getting that moment of authentic interest can spark this virtuous cycle, energizes teams, energizes people, transforms workplaces. And we need those virtuous cycles at work, and we need leaders to bear the responsibility to really get those cycles going. Tim Houlihan 1:16:26 Yeah? So whether you're an individual contributor or you're a people leader, the path to productivity really starts with finding meaning at work. Kurt Nelson 1:16:36 Yeah, and you can find meaning in your life by joining our Behavioral Grooves Facebook community. Of course, you like that little segue in there where we exchange ideas on how you might be better at finding and staying in your groove. So there we go. So until next time, next episode, we hope that you can take some of these insights from Wesson Tamara and use These as you go out and find your group. You Transcribed by https://otter.ai