Kurt Nelson  0:07  
Tim, have I ever talked to you about my lucky socks?

Tim Houlihan  0:12  
Well, you've told me a lot about your socks. Actually, Kurt maybe more than I care to admit you've talked about your socks

Kurt Nelson  0:19  
I do talk about socks I have over the years. Yes, yeah, over the

Tim Houlihan  0:23  
years. I'm not sure if you've actually brought up your lucky socks, though.

Kurt Nelson  0:27  
Okay, well, let me tell you a little bit about them, so they're not just generally lucky socks. I don't just wear them ad hoc any time. They're specific lucky socks, and they're specific for the Minnesota Timberwolves.

Tim Houlihan  0:42  
Oh yeah, the National Basketball team in Minneapolis, where

Kurt Nelson  0:44  
you live. Yeah, the Minnesota Timberwolves based in in Minnesota here. And, well, just I got this pair of really cool Timberwolf socks for Christmas this past year. From, from my favorite son, yeah. Oh, good job. Quinn, way to go. So here's, here's the thing, and here's why they they're lucky, or at least I think they're lucky, right? So I got them for Christmas, and then I wore them to the next game that we had with them. Then I'm a season ticket holder, so I went, I go to the games. Often. I went to a game. Wore the socks. Guess what? Guess what? Timber was one? Oh, look

Tim Houlihan  1:20  
yes. Okay, fantastic. You wear the socks. They win. Okay, fantastic. Love

Kurt Nelson  1:24  
that still so I wore them again to a different game. Yep, guess what? Tim, drum roll, they won again. Oh, my gosh, yeah. But then, then, oh, something else, have to wear them. Oh, no, I think it was too busy. I think there's, I had to come right from work or whatever. I didn't realize that there was a game that night, and I didn't dress, put them on, and just for, you know, had to run out the door to get there. Didn't have my lucky Timberwood socks on. And so guess what happened? Well, they lost, right? They did. They lost. So I am, you know, I need to wear them to every game now. Oh,

Tim Houlihan  2:06  
so are you telling me that every time that they won, every time you were them, they won, right? So that,

Kurt Nelson  2:12  
Oh, hell no, hell no, oh no. You know, the socks probably have a success rate of about 50% so, you know, subsequent after that, I wore them again and they lost, and then I didn't wear them and they won, but, but it's, it's, it's not that. It's. The important part is, if I don't wear them, I get this feeling, this like I'm letting the team down. I get this antsy part, I'm not doing my part, even though, even though Tim I know that me wearing my lucky Timberwolf socks or my Timberwolf shirt or whatever it would be, has absolutely no bearing on how the timberwooves do on the court. Okay? I know that. I know that rationally up here, yeah, but still I get that feeling.

Tim Houlihan  3:03  
I love that you teased out the difference between how it makes you feel and how the team performs and and kudos to you for using the scientific method to determine that the Sox actually have no bearing on the final

Kurt Nelson  3:17  
score. Well, I knew that going into it, but still, it's one of those really crazy things there is that the point is there is no scientific correlation. It's about how I feel about the games when I do or don't wear them. So why do I still feel like they're my lucky socks? I call them my lucky socks, and I feel like I need to wear them, even though I know there is no shred of evidence that they have any influence. But why do I do that? Why do I cling? Why do any of us cling to the rituals, the rally caps, the the blowing on the dice, the any of those superstition things, those crazy routines that we have, and, yes, even lucky socks as fans. Why do we do that? Why can't Why does it matter when we know deep down at some level that it doesn't impact the game in any way? I think

Tim Houlihan  4:15  
that that's the topic we should groove on that. Why do we hold on to superstitions?

Kurt Nelson  4:22  
Right? Yeah, okay, so I agree here. So what's going on? Tim, what do you what do you think? What are we doing?

Tim Houlihan  4:29  
Well, I use the term superstitious because the very first thing I think we need to address is superstitious conditioning. This comes way back from BF Skinner with, with the pigeons, you know, the pigeons are clicking around in the in the in the space, and then they happen to peck on a lever, and they get a reward. And the pigeons feel like, Oh, if I do, if I, if I click on this lever, then I get food. You know, if I, if I do. This thing, I'm going to get this, this reward, and it feels like they they were caught. They caused it, whether or not there was actually a connection between the click and the reward they felt like. And this is, this is how human beings feel. We feel like, if I do that enough, if I wear those damn socks, those are my lucky socks. If I wear them enough, it will help the team that causal relationship is a natural inclination of the human condition. So

Kurt Nelson  5:30  
BF Skinner, for those of most of you should know who. BF Skinner is famous behaviorist, but the idea that there is this conditioning process. And he talks about, you know, driven behavior, this learned behavior that we have, and that's how behavior is formed. And so what he's saying is this superstitious conditioning is because I wore those socks at the beginning and they won, and then I happened to have another just by chance, wore them and they won again, and then I wore them and they or I didn't wear them and they lost. Right there that conditioned me to this feeling, and now, even though I knew rationally in my head, there was this, this conditioning that happened, and I think that's that's a really important part, yeah,

Tim Houlihan  6:19  
and superstitions can also flow from rules. You know, this idea, like we and this gets passed down culturally, like, don't walk under a ladder, or if you if a black cat crosses your your path, or, you know, when you do something bad, you have to throw salt over your shoulders. You know, these are all cultural kinds of things that we learn to try to explain correlations that aren't really causal.

Kurt Nelson  6:49  
Basically, well, and yeah. And one of the interesting pieces too is that while, you know, I the socks, I told like the first couple pieces there was that there was a correlation. It was spurious, but it was still a correlation to winning or losing that it's actually can be even more powerful with intermittent rewards. This idea, we know that from all the incentive work that we've done, we know that that's why the roulette wheel or the poker you know games work really well, because there's an intermittent reward associated with that that actually drives more dopamine release in our brain, and variety of different pieces of this. So there is that aspect that even though I see that it it loses sometimes and wins sometimes, that might actually be reinforcing my my angst around this, the feeling that I have, and that is just really, really kind of crazy when you think about it.

Tim Houlihan  7:47  
So the underlying problem with this is that we mistake correlation with causation, like just because, just because shark attacks go up in the same curve as ice cream sales, doesn't mean that ice cream sales cause shark attacks.

Kurt Nelson  8:06  
There you go. Okay, what else? So there's also this aspect of illusion of control. I I know that the socks don't help, like I know my socks aren't influencing Anthony Edwards jump shot, right? But I feel like better with them on a little less help. Like I'm, I'm somehow doing that right,

Tim Houlihan  8:27  
yeah, but we love that. We love that sense of certainty, like basketball chaos. Like you, if you wear your socks you're, you're actually helping to create a little pocket

Kurt Nelson  8:37  
of order well, and I have that control. So Ellen Langer, you know, kind of coined this term, this illusion of control, back in 1975 and I love the way that that they they did this experiment. The experiment was, hey, they had participants bet right on a roll of a dice, and participants who got to roll the dice themselves that more as if they by having that control of the dice, they somehow affected the outcome when we know that's not true. It's a random throw rather, if you throw them or I throw them, it doesn't matter. It's all about this illusion of control and the fact that wearing my socks is in a some sort of control piece. For me, it's something I can do, and even though I know rationally that it doesn't impact it, it's like, I feel like, what if they if they lose and I don't wear my socks? I feel bad. I feel like, what did I just cause?

Tim Houlihan  9:44  
Well, because it gives you a sense of agency, like, at least you're doing something right, like, I'm I'm supporting the team in this way and and, like you said, you felt a certain anxiousness when you forgot, like, when you forgot to. Of this talks you were, there was a little bit of anxiety with that, like, you know, I'm not supporting the team. I'm not doing what I can. I'm not doing my part. Even with you.

Kurt Nelson  10:08  
It's interesting because, and I consider myself, hopefully, a rational, smart person. And I will tell you this there was, there was one time it's like, I didn't do any of the the normal I wear, usually wear like a timber of some sort of timber of shirt, t shirt, and then I have a hat sometimes, and I wear that and, and, you know, all of those things, right? And I remember very vividly one time I didn't have any of that, and I went to the game and they still won. And it was this feeling like, oh, they won. Not be, you know, they won, besides the fact that I didn't do this, oh, they had to work extra hard today because I didn't help out with my stuff so well, because

Tim Houlihan  10:56  
we humans are reason seeking machines, right? Yeah, there's got to be a reason that they won today. And so I'm going to have to put that story together in my head, just like the, like the, the Ellen Langers dice rolling experiment, yeah, I'm going to be more effective when I do it, when I roll that dice, I'm, well,

Kurt Nelson  11:16  
it's worth the bet, and it's a part of this personal involvement, right? So I think there's, there's another study, 2014 from yarrato and Matute and vidilo. I probably just totally scan that, but they basically like we overestimate the influence that our behavior has in uncontrollable outcomes, right? Yeah. But the fact is, is that if we're part of it, that personal involvement. And so for me, it's my personal involvement putting socks on, right? And that confounds with the probability of whatever that is. So it's really, it's an interesting piece. And the fact of the matter is, is that that illusion of control makes me feel good, right? It makes me it gives some aspect of I'm part of this team. I'm part of this community, which gets to the next part of this, which is that there's an aspect of social identity. Yeah, I am. I am doing my part, and the other people around me are doing my part, and I'm signaling to them by wearing those socks. I'm doing all of this, right? So I think there's a that's a really important piece too.

Tim Houlihan  12:26  
You're showing that you're not just somebody going to the game. You're in group, yes, right? That you belong there because you're you're demonstrating on this very outward basis of what I'm wearing, the clothes that demonstrate that I'm in group, I'm part of the inner circle, right? And this is important. This is a really important thing. I mean, it even like it. There's tons of work. I think one and brands come from 1993 found that stronger fan identification leads to greater emotional investment. And it totally makes sense, right? That engaging in these behaviors that reinforce group belonging, even if it appears irrational, is really satisfying to us. Yeah.

Kurt Nelson  13:13  
Hey, Groovers, we want to take a moment away from our conversation to thank you for listening to Behavioral Grooves if you enjoy the conversations we're having and want to help us keep the groove going. Here are a few simple ways that you can support the show. First off,

Tim Houlihan  13:27  
subscribing to our sub stack is a great way to stay connected with us between episodes. The weekly newsletter provides you with cool insights that are beyond the episodes, and they get delivered straight to your inbox, and

Kurt Nelson  13:39  
if you haven't already leaving a review or a rating of the podcast on a platform like Apple or Spotify or YouTube helps other curious minds discover us, and there's two great things about that. One, it gives us a boost. And two, it costs nothing

Tim Houlihan  13:55  
and it only takes a second, but it makes a huge difference for us. Plus, we love hearing from you, so don't be shy. Leave us a review or give us a quick thumbs up.

Kurt Nelson  14:04  
We're coming up on 500 episodes, and we're doing this because we love the conversations we have with our guests. Yeah. We

Tim Houlihan  14:11  
also want to do it because we love bringing you insightful behavior, changing content every week, and we hope that some of those insights will help you find your groove.

Kurt Nelson  14:24  
There's, it's, it's interesting, because I'm going to the game, I'm wearing my my jersey, my socks, my whatever else it is. The guy next to me has his timber wolves hat on. You know that other person down there has their has their jersey on, and then there's that other person that is just dressed in street clothes, that's me, that's me, and I'm like that, yeah, I'm I know these other people, yeah, they're part of my tribe, right? I'm part of their tribe. We are. We're part of the timberwooves tribe, and the team, and us are part of that same tribe. And. That other person, they're not, right? That's, it's, it's really interesting. So

Tim Houlihan  15:03  
it's a collective ritual, right? And this is community, it's bonding to brings these people together for especially for sports fans, like this is why, this is why there is so much sports, you know, stuff to buy is because it is so naturally bonding and community building. You know it, it connects you to everything about that team that you see, right and good, probably,

Kurt Nelson  15:27  
yeah. So even if the scoreboard doesn't reflect that I wore the socks at the end of the game, right? But it wearing those socks connects me to the past wins that I helped influence by wearing those socks. There you go. Real or imagine, you know, it makes me feel closer to the team, and it helps me bond with those other fans, those fans who get it, those really smart fans, right? So it's not just about the wolves winning, it's about us winning together. Ah, you you've actually

Tim Houlihan  16:00  
participated in the process. Then

Kurt Nelson  16:03  
what's really interesting, Tim is that I used to do this only at home games, and when I would go and I have become much more like I wear my socks now when they're playing on television and they're at an away game, and even more distant from this, and nobody else around to share my my community, like I'm not signaling to my kids that, you know, this is it. But there's something about the rituals, right? There's something about the ritual that helps reduce that stress. It creates that bond again. It boosts that sense of, as you said, agency, right? That I have some there's real psychological impacts of this. So

Tim Houlihan  16:47  
is the message that the next time someone finds themselves wearing the lucky jersey, or they've got the muffler around their neck, or they're wearing their cap inside out or sideways or something like that, there's no reason to feel stupid about that.

Kurt Nelson  17:02  
Well, you can still feel stupid if it's, you know, it's for the other team, but it's for our team. No, you shouldn't feel it's some psychological there is psychological benefit for that, right? And as irrational as it appears on the outside, there is some internal component that brings you some joy to this, some that that sense of being part of the this tribe of this team, that this little part, even though rationally, I know it doesn't impact the game, It connects me to it in a different way. It makes me more of a fan. It makes that game more interesting. I will tell you, there have been many times I have a stocking cap, right? Timberwooves stocking cap, and I take it off. This is we, you know, this idea of a rally cap, right? And it's the immediacy of that. So I get to the game, it's warm, I take that hat off, right? Fourth quarter comes around. We are not quite winning, or we're, you know, getting closer. And I will put that hat on, and particularly if they start scoring more points. I keep that hat on, even regardless of how hot I am, if they start losing, if they start like not scoring them, I take the hat off because I it the immediacy of that control of what I'm doing. It makes no sense, but there's a there's an ass. Feels good. Feels good. Yeah, yeah, excellent. All right, so I'm sure many of our listeners might have their own weird fan rituals, many of you, hopefully maybe do right? Would love to hear about those. So leave us a comment on what your fan ritual is. Join our groove community, and you can talk about that. Maybe we'll post that as a groove question next week, or whenever that is your football

Tim Houlihan  18:57  
team, your cricket team, your basketball team, your soccer team, or whatever

Kurt Nelson  19:02  
you know, or when you go and do anything where it's like, there's some ritualistic aspect to it that you think is condoning luck of some sort, right? Yeah, it's gambling, the blowing on the dice, the, you know, tapping, you know, something. It's some OCD behaviors in some sense, right? There's something about that, right? But you know, if that's there, you know? So, yeah, we just want people to give us what, what's your go to game day ritual? Let us know, and then, you know, take us maybe, maybe wear your shirt and send a picture on social media to us. And

Tim Houlihan  19:41  
maybe, maybe this week, this crazy idea about feeling okay with your superstitions because it reduces your anxiety and sense of control might help you as you go out and find your groove you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai