Kurt Nelson 0:07 Hey, Groovers, welcome back to Behavioral Grooves. I'm Kurt Nelson and I'm Tim Houlihan 0:10 Tim Houlihan. In this episode, we get curious about what it means to really find your groove at work, and how one UX researcher is applying behavioral science in surprising ways inside a tech giant, surprising Kurt Nelson 0:24 ways, that's right. Tim, our guest is Alexis Mook, user, researcher, manager at IBM with a PhD in experimental psychology, she seems to be built for breaking products that is breaking them for the better. And Alexis helps design teams build tools that are not just beautiful, but usable. And bias aware, Tim Houlihan 0:46 we covered a lot of ground with Alexis, but if we had to narrow it all down, I'd say that there are three big sites that stuck with us right. First, I'd say the confirmation bias in design is real and dangerous, right? When product owners test their own designs, it skews the results. So Alexis advocates fiercely for third party testing to reduce bias and protect the integrity of the insights. Kurt Nelson 1:12 Yeah. And secondly, she reminded us that influence isn't just for end users. Her real magic is in how she navigates internal stakeholders, teaching product managers and developers the value of behavioral research and standing up for science in an environment. Tim, I think you might have experienced this once or twice in an environment that doesn't always understand it. Oh, yes, basically, she's figured out a way to be a voice of truth with powerful people in our organization who aren't used to hearing this one word, Tim, what is that one word? So that way, they're not used to hearing this word no, no, they don't know the word no, or at least they don't hear it told to them when they're trying to have fries done. Right? Yeah. Third, Tim Houlihan 1:57 third. We dug into the purpose paradox. Now Alexis told us about some high impact ideas from her academic research on wrongful convictions and how they could apply to the tech world. It's kind of cool stuff, and in doing so, she discovered a more immediate and personal sense of purpose mentoring young researchers and shaping user experience that touches millions of people. Yeah, Kurt Nelson 2:21 so we think you're gonna love her sharp insights and her joyful presence, and we hope that it inspires you to reflect on your own groove. And we'd also like to express our gratitude to our producer, Caroline Schaefer, for introducing us to Alexis, who I think is her twin sister actually, and not just a friend or, Tim Houlihan 2:39 like, some kind of a even closer than Yeah, clone, clone, Kurt Nelson 2:44 yeah. I mean, maybe, maybe Caroline cloned herself, or Alexis cloned herself. I don't know one of the two, but yeah, they they sound, they sound so similar. It's crazy. It is crazy, but thank you. And it was like we're talking with Caroline on the show, yeah, yeah, all right. So sit back, grab a cup of black coffee, just like our guest, Alexis likes, and enjoy our conversation with the bias, busting joy, bringing Alexis muck. Tim Houlihan 3:22 Alexis muck, welcome to Behavioral Grooves. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to have you here. We have to start by saying thank you to our producer, Caroline Schaefer, for introducing us and and we're really looking forward to this conversation. We're gonna start with a speed round. So first and foremost, we need to know, do you prefer coffee or tea, Alexis Mook 3:41 coffee. I'm chugging some right now, right? Tim Houlihan 3:44 All day, dude, all day. Alexis Mook 3:47 Yeah, it doesn't affect me that much, honestly. So yeah, I can have it pretty much all day if I want. All Kurt Nelson 3:54 right, do you have it black? Do you have it with cream and sugar? Alexis Mook 3:57 Black? Black. I'm one of those. Yeah, oh my gosh, I'm Kurt Nelson 4:05 crazy cool. All right, Alexis, would you prefer to have dinner with your favorite artist, actor or musician? Alexis Mook 4:14 Ooh, that's a tough one. I'll go. I watch more TV they think than I do either of the other so I'll go an actor or actress. Okay, all right, top of my head, I don't know who would be, though there's so many options. Tim Houlihan 4:28 Are you? Are you screaming anything? Right now, that's Alexis Mook 4:32 my gut says Zac Efron, and I don't know why I like, grew up with him, but that's probably a bad choice. I feel like if I was given time, I'd come up with something better. I Kurt Nelson 4:44 don't know, Zach seems like he'd be an interesting guy to have a dinner, you know? Yeah, he would be fun, right? He's really Alexis Mook 4:50 big in sustainability and stuff too. Like, he's like, smart too. I think we'd have a lot to talk. Oh, Kurt Nelson 4:55 see, I didn't know that. There you go. Tim Houlihan 4:59 I think. It's a good qualification for a dinner guest just to have some intellectual capability. Yeah, absolutely. Kurt Nelson 5:06 Which rules Tim or me out? So Tim Houlihan 5:08 we would, we don't make good dinner guests. Okay? Alexis, would you prefer, excuse me, not, a prefer. If you could have one superpower for an hour. What would that superpower be? This is so Alexis Mook 5:21 funny. I was just talking about this, what, yeah, like, I was, I was somewhere, and I was like, I wish I could just be there already. And I think it's teleportation. Like, I would just like, boop around to different countries for an hour and check them out and come back. I prefer to flying. In my mind, I think flying is going to be comparable to running, I feel is going to exert some energy on my part, whereas I think teleportation will just like, be able to beep around town do whatever I want, though. So Tim Houlihan 5:50 does that appeal to your lazy self or your I can't get enough done in one day self? Alexis Mook 5:54 Yeah, definitely the latter. It's just, it's my, um, my, my need to fit as much in as possible in as little time as possible. Oh, Kurt Nelson 6:04 I love it. I love it. I've always thought about teleportation, like, like, you know you're, you're driving for four or five hours, and you go, yeah, if we had that, that thing from Star Trek, I could, I'd already be there, yeah, I would have Alexis Mook 6:19 the whole day of in this new location, once I got there, just like, well, and Kurt Nelson 6:23 think about what that would do for work. I mean, you could have work in person, but you could live anywhere, because it would be like, Oh, all right, I have to go to my job in Alaska now. Excuse me, Alexis Mook 6:36 literally perfect, right? Yeah. Tim Houlihan 6:39 Are you dissing the people who already live in Alaska there? No, Kurt Nelson 6:46 oh my gosh. Only you would take it down that way. I'm like going, how great it would be to work in Alaska. There you go. All right, that's let's just forgive Tim and me bickering here. All right, last Speed Round question, do we really need UX to design products? I mean, don't usually people just figure stuff out anyway, and it's just, it's all fine. Is that people Alexis Mook 7:09 don't know you're gonna go a totally different direction with that? Was like, AI and stuff. And I was like, Oh, I don't know if I'm ready for this yet. But no people, no, especially the products I'm working on. We're in, like, a really complex domain, so a lot of our stuff, I have a long winded answer, I guess, which is depends what type of product you're on. If you're on a new product, and you're starting from scratch. That's like a different vibe. At IBM, we have some really, really old legacy products, and when you get in there and you try to update those, it is just chaos, Unknown Speaker 7:51 right? Some people Alexis Mook 7:53 have been using them for decades and, like, it makes sense to them, but no new workers coming in can use them. So we're like, oh, we're trying to fix them for the new workers, and then the older workers, or people been doing it for a long time. We're like, No, I like it the way it is. And it's like, I've only been on one of those. But it was, it was frustrating as a as a user researcher, because it's like, Who do I cater to? Like, ideally, it should be an easy product so anyone can come in and use it. But if the experts who've been using it for years like it the way it is, I don't know, really a battle between, Kurt Nelson 8:28 yeah, the status quo bias, versus like what, what is required for new people? Well, you just mentioned IBM. So you work at IBM in UX. Can you describe what you do, what your job is for the listeners here? Alexis Mook 8:43 Yeah, absolutely. So I'm currently a user research manager. So I manage a team of researchers, along with I have two other managers who our team's quite big, so we split up who reports to who. Together, we kind of decide, like the team strategy and who should be placed, where and kind of who's the best fit for certain teams and stuff like that. Prior to that, I was a user researcher, and so I'm used to the work, and I am probably the most recent manager who had been doing the work, so sometimes my fellow managers will, like, ask me questions about the research, because I was like, just there, like, this time last year, I was still a researcher, so almost coming into my one years management, but, but yeah, then as as a user researcher, traditionally at IBM, we're embedded in a design team, so we work with UX designers, content designers, visual designers, as well as our three In A Box team would be including product managers and developer so we all work together to try to build new products for our target audience. So Tim Houlihan 9:51 So what's the difference between the designer job and the researcher job when it comes to UX? Well, Alexis Mook 9:58 the researchers are cooler. Clearly, that's a shout out to my designer friends. But no, they, I mean, the designers are the ones actually in the design tools, like like figma, or, let's see InVision, like stuff like that. They're the ones building the screens. Brother, it's a prototype. Or even, like wire framing or something that's like, not full, full fidelity, they call it. So it'd be like, just boxes on a screen trying to tell you the steps that need to happen. Um, whereas I have none of those skills, I'll be quite honest with you, and some some reaches run, some researchers do. I need to put that out there, like, I don't want to, I want to throw out all of the under the bus. But, you know, I come from academia as well, so like, I'm like, a researcher, researcher. There's some who kind of do a little design and a little research, and I think we're all, we're all valuable here and there, depending on the situation, I believe. But, but, yeah, so they're the ones actually kind of designing it, and then what I do is I take their designs and then I break their hearts by showing it to users and telling them where it's wrong. Tim Houlihan 11:06 So you're a heartbreaker, Alexis Mook 11:09 yeah, and that's, I'll say, the behavioral science side of this. Like, why we have US researchers in there is a lot to do with biases. So like, this example just happened to me the other day where one of my designer friends who's not on my team, she was like, Yeah, I'm running a usability test today. And I was like, you are like, because I know they've researchers on their team. I know them personally. And I was like, I was like, on your own design? And she was like, yeah. Like, what's the problem with that? I was like, I mean, other than the, you know, very apparent bias of you showing them your design that you want them to, like nothing, I guess, like she was, she was like, I can do it. And I was like, you you can try. But like, everyone has biases. It can show whether you're verbalizing it or not, like, if you might nod your head, you might smile a little, like, there's a lot of body language that happens that I think they kind of are unaware of. And I'll say, like, I'm not totally against designers doing research ever at all. Like there's a time and a place, but I it should be a third party, in my opinion, it should not be the person who, like, actively designed it. Yeah, they're just, there's a potential of them, you know, hinting them through the right path, or giving them information they might not have had if me, a third party is in there, doing it for them, and then we'll see that struggle point more clearly, you know, yeah. So, yeah, it's a lot of it is me poo pooing on other people's parades. Kurt Nelson 12:43 Well, we'll come back to your heartbreaking, other people's parades here in a minute. But I do want to talk a little bit about understanding your your journey to this because, as you said, you were an academia, academia. You had done research, you had PhD, right? So how, what led you into this line of work. Alexis Mook 13:03 I never wanted to teach. I've always really liked research, so right my senior year of college, I was being encouraged to apply to PhD programs from my mentor at the time, Aaron Mitchell. Shout out to him. I was just so busy with classes and stuff. I was like, preparing my application, but was like, I don't have time to make a good application, if that makes sense. I was like, I'll be able to get this in. But I think if I take a year, my GRE scores will be better. Like, I'll write a better personal essay, because I have time to put into it. Yada yada. So I decided to take this gap year where I was trying to get a research job. So I was like looking at potential research jobs. I only was able to find a position in a lab in Georgia State, so it was unpaid, and it was just to fill that year with something of research for my resume, right? But that lab was a legal psych Lab, which was something that always interests me. So legal psychology is just like how aspects of psychology impact the legal system. So I did a year there where I was doing some really cool work on, like MRI studies with she was looking at, like auditory hallucinations with people who are on a spectrum of schizophrenia. I know I like researching. I'm sure I'll have fun. Like legal psych seemed very interesting to me. So through that process, I was accepted to FIU, where they have a legal psych program, which is pretty niche. There's a few around the country, but it's, it's very cool work my mentor did eyewitness decision making work and alibi research. So that's mostly what I did while I was there, because I worked under him primarily. And then someone was like, talking about, like, eyewitness memory, you know, victim memory, a lot of memories. Stuff. So I do, I I mentioned my degrees in experimental psychology, but I think if I were to give myself a title, I would call myself a cognitive psychologist from the work I've done. But, you know, tomato, tomato, I'm a psychologist. Tim Houlihan 15:18 I mean, you get to decide because you've because you've got it so and I just want to clarify, FIU, Florida International University, yes, is what we're talking about here. You did a lot of work with FMRIs, and Alexis Mook 15:32 just in that was at Georgia State. And like, Tim Houlihan 15:34 Georgia State, Yeah, but how does that I guess. I'm curious about, how did the technology influence the neuroscience that comes from this? How does that influence what we know about our behaviors? How does that inform what we know about our behaviors and how people actually Alexis Mook 15:55 I mean, I think a lot of that data is almost just giving validity to current theories, right? So it's like, you know, just throw someone in an fMRI and see how they react, and then draw conclusions off of it, right? Like, like, she had a hypothesis, you know, as science goes, and she was attempting to back up some of her hypotheses, which were, like I mentioned, it was, it was, it was pretty cool stuff. It was like, um, some people are like, pre schizophrenic, where they're not fully hallucinating things. They might not be hearing or seeing things, but their imaginations are really, really vivid, so they sometimes have a hard time differentiate, differentiating between reality and a dream or reality and a daydream, like stuff like that. So she was studying this very niche population to see if they had, I forget what exactly her goal was. It was something about auditory imaging like it. Basically, she was trying to prove that them imagining a song would react the same way in the brain as hearing the song. And to my knowledge, that's what they found. So wow, it's kind of cool stuff. Yeah, that Tim Houlihan 17:12 is very cool. Yeah. Kurt Nelson 17:14 Okay, so Alexis, let's go back to the journey. And you are, you're at, you're at, FIU, you're getting all this, yeah. How does the jump go? Then into to get to IBM, yeah. So, like Alexis Mook 17:26 I said, I knew I always want to do applied research when I got there, because it's an applied program, I kind of assumed they, like would set you up for that, and not no shade on them. But they're all academics, right? Like the actual professors, none of them went into that and so, so they're there to teach you the science, and not necessarily teach you how to use it outside of academia. So I was kind of doing my own leg work on like, what, what roads I could take. There were some cool things that people from the program have done. A lot of them go into trial consulting, which I thought was kind of cool. Like, I was eyeing that up for a little bit, and then a lot of them went to the FBI, which I also thought was kind of cool, right? That is, yeah, it was for a while I was really gung ho on the FBI, and then I was, just happened to be friends with one of the former graduates who went there, and she told me that she didn't like it at all. And chicks like, she was like, it's actually super boring, which I could not imagine. The FBI, like, that sounds so cool. So Tim Houlihan 18:29 hasn't she seen any of the police dramas on TV? Yeah, police Kurt Nelson 18:32 dramas movies. That's always exciting. And, Alexis Mook 18:35 you know, they it was like a fellowship. So they weren't, they were paying, like, a very low salary to live in DC and stuff. And I was just like, I was like, I don't know, like, it seems really cool, but what if I just look at other stuff? And then one of my old colleagues, he was graduating about the time I was in my second year or third year, I forget, but he told me to look into UX, because he was looking into UX, and he sounds right up your alley, because it's applied psych in a like, active environment where, like, your research is making an impact, like, instantaneously, like, and that's, I'd say, the biggest issue with some of our legal psych research is, like, we can sit here and tell you guys how to interview someone all day long based on Our research, but it's all usually not implemented for like, 20 years, you know, like trying to, trying to talk to, you know, police officers or or anyone in, like, the government and whatever. So I was really keen on trying to make an immediate impact, and like getting, like, quick and dirty research done and helping a product move along. I started just interviewing around. And then, you know, once you know I was completed, my dissertation was like, really on the job market. Networking like crazy was a big thing too, just like talking to people, understanding how they got into it. The more people you talk to, the more you learn, the more prepared you are for an interview. Right? So a lot of that really helped me. And, yeah, and then I just, I was, I was on the final round with a couple companies, and then it was IBM, and I was, like, sold. I really liked the manager who I was speaking to at the time. He's since left IBM, but like, really hit off with him. Really hit off with the researcher who was part of a, like, they gave me a project as part of the interview, like a research study, to do quick and easy for them and then show them how I would have they're not like looking for research to be completed. They're looking to see, like your thought process of how you would have developed a study. Kurt Nelson 20:38 Hey, Groovers, we want to take a moment away from our conversation to thank you for listening to Behavioral Grooves. If you enjoy the conversations we're having and want to help us keep the groove going, here are a few simple ways that you can support the show. First off, Tim Houlihan 20:51 subscribing to our sub stack is a great way to stay connected with us between episodes. The weekly newsletter provides you with cool insights that are beyond the episodes, and they get delivered straight to your inbox, Kurt Nelson 21:03 and if you haven't already leaving a review or a rating of the podcast on a platform like Apple or Spotify or YouTube, helps other curious minds discover us. And there's two great things about that. One, it gives us a boost. And two, it costs nothing, Tim Houlihan 21:20 and it only takes a second, but it makes a huge difference for us. Plus, we love hearing from you, so don't be shy. Leave us a review or give us a quick thumbs up. Kurt Nelson 21:29 We're coming up on 500 episodes, and we're doing this because we love the conversations we have with our guests. Yeah, Tim Houlihan 21:35 we also want to do it because we love bringing you insightful behavior, changing content every week, and we hope that some of those insights will help you find your groove. It's good to see the smile on your face that says, Yeah, this is actually a good gig here at Behavioral Grooves headquarters, global headquarters, of course, we we try to focus on human behavior, right? And, and it's the, how do you find your groove? How do you, you know, what are the why do we do the things that we do? And as a UX researcher, tell us how your work works, to try to understand and deal better with how humans actually behave. You know, Alexis Mook 22:20 where there's this big debate in the field, actually over whether we should be called a user researcher or a product researcher or a design researcher like and no one knows what the best title is. But because, like, what do Tim Houlihan 22:33 you say? What's your vote on that? So I once Alexis Mook 22:37 heard someone say we shouldn't be called user researchers, because the only time you call someone a user is if they're, like, addicted to a drug, or one other example that, like, was also bad. And I was like, Yeah, you're right. Like, Kurt Nelson 22:55 they like, yeah. I'd never even that didn't occur to me, but yes, Alexis Mook 22:59 so I've actually started at work trying to either call them like customers. If we actually have customers who use the product or be on a new product, I try to call them like a target audience, like I try to use different words. I don't know if it matters at the end of the day, but after hearing that, I was like, that is very that makes sense. I personally think we're more I would call us product design at IBM, and then I hope none of my design friends yell at me for that, because, like, we do do design research as well, but at the end of the day, we're all building a product together, right? And a lot of our research, especially early on, is in like, go to market fit and like, like pricing studies and like feature analysis, like, we'll run some pretty complex statistics on different features to understand which ones are weighted higher and what should be prioritized on a roadmap. So, so, yeah, I would, I would consider as product researchers, but I'll be called whatever I'm called. I'm not going to be offended. Tim Houlihan 23:59 Yeah. So how does this? How does this get to understanding or advising or influencing Alexis Mook 24:08 our behaviors? Yeah, so that's what I'm trying to get to, is like while, at the end of the day, my job is building a product, my job as a user researcher is making sure that product is like, intuitive, easy to use and quick for our customers who are using it. So I guess my job is to influence the customers to be able to do their job faster given the design of the product. And like I said, also, I think a lot of my job is influencing those around me to not build a crazy bias product. Kurt Nelson 24:49 Yeah, yeah. Well, I think I think that's an interesting piece, right? Because oftentimes our jobs are not just like focusing in on the end product. The. Result, whatever it would be, but it is the people that we're working with that have maybe a different perspective, or don't have the perspective that we have, and so it's influencing them as well, through the science, through the experience that you have, through all of those facets. So in your job, when you're working in this, obviously, it's looking at the final design and making sure that it's as easy to use, intuitive to use, as possible, so that people don't have to have all those friction points. But with the people that you're working with, what are some of the what are some of the things you already brought up? One like the person that you mentioned that I'm going to put my own research design out there. But what are some other kind of roadblocks that you run into that you think you need to help people see a different way of doing things? Alexis Mook 25:52 Yeah, so up Friday, I want to also say I feel like this is a very important time for me to be sharing the value of research to a large crowd, because there's a lot of companies that are cutting a lot of research departments, ours included. It was not my org, but it was another one parallel to us, and I think they pretty much cut all their US researchers, and they were very, very smart and talented people. So, you know, that's a bummer to see at your own company. And I see it other places too. I think now more than ever, we're trying to, like, argue our value, yeah, but I see it every day, quite honestly, like, and I don't know, like, if I should just start showing people more more transparently, but I literally, I had to give a presentation on sample size last week. So like, like, I any type of study they're running this. This even happened in a meeting this week. They're like, why, why do you only talk to six people? Why don't you do up to 10? And it's like, there is a plethora of work that shows you only need five to eight people in qualitative work to distill like 85% of themes you're going to get anyways. If we if we were to do 12 to 10 people, we would have spent more money and more time to give you probably the same result. And then don't even get me into quantitative work, because almost no one knows how to do that, except the PhDs in the program. And we actually, me and two of my other coworkers who also have PhDs and different things, we started a quantitative guild where, at first we were hoping it to kind of be how you guys described this at the beginning, like we're just gonna be a bunch of like nerds getting together and talking quant stuff like it that will be fun. And then when people joined, we saw, like, the whole audience was like, novices who were like, We need to learn how to do quant work. So then it came into like, now I'm like, teaching a stats class to people, and I'll say, like, there are, I oftentimes it's up to the researcher to know these things and be the one speaking up to them in meetings when you're deciding what method to use, or what sample it is, and how to run the statistics, or if statistics are even needed, like that's usually on the researcher to know. I will say I have worked with some really smart PMS who also, you know, they've taken a stats class. I know the basics, and I personally like that stuff because it is kind of quantity, and I think it's kind of fun, but not everyone does. So again, it all kind of just depends on what products you're on and what phase of like, development they're in on, like, what you'd actually be really doing day to day. Tim Houlihan 28:37 So if you could wave a magic wand and have everybody understand this is the value that the UX researchers bring to the table. What would those say? Two things be that they have the largest misconceptions about, Alexis Mook 28:52 oh, my goodness, I would love to have actual data on, like, product usage with and without a researcher on the team, or something like, like having them fully live through the development cycle with a researcher helping them and without one and see the outcome like that would be, that would be my dream, like a parallel universe where they're seeing both experiences at the same time, kind Kurt Nelson 29:15 of like this wonderful Life where, like, here's your life with your life, with your life, Alexis Mook 29:21 literally, yes, that would be awesome. Because I do think I it depends on the team. As I said, like, I do think it's hard to see, like, without actually having experienced both of those like, I could imagine why it'd be like, Well, why would we need a researcher? Like, I can do research like PMS, consider talking to two customers research, and it's like, it's like you were they're also, like, their buddies too. It's like, you're just, like, chatting with your friend. That's not research. Tim Houlihan 29:51 That's a nice conversation, but that's not really, yeah, and like, Alexis Mook 29:55 some, like, I said, some of them are really good. And like, they, I know some of them. Am do good research, for sure, but I'm like, if there's some one off conversations with customers, that's not really research, like, are you following a script? Like, are you asking them all the same questions? Like, I doubt it. I think you're just riffing. And then you're like, come back with all these ideas. And it's like those ideas aren't invaluable by any means, but it's like those ideas need validated if that's how you got them, you know, yeah, Kurt Nelson 30:25 how are you bringing in with your background, and obviously the research methodologies of bringing in, but are you bringing in any of the psychology or the behavioral science that you studied into this work that you're doing? I Alexis Mook 30:37 mean, there's a ton of biases that I'll bring up that, like, I know, just from my background, right? Like, yeah, like, availability bias, like, we're like, talking about sampling bias the other day, you know, in my sample size. So yeah, I say like, social psych and certain examples of why and when things could be bias, like comes up a lot. Quite honestly, I do say, though, like a lot of our team, I think trying to be unbiased has been drilled into their heads so, like, they know they they know what they shouldn't do. Usually, I think in this, I see this everywhere all the time. I feel like, you guys probably can relate. But someone's like, well, you know, I'm, I'm gonna be as unbiased as possible. And I'm like, I'm like, you can't be unbiased. Like, that's I like, I've given up on being unbiased. It's not gonna happen. I'm incredibly biased. Like, if anything, I'd rather you come to me say I'm incredibly biased, but I think this easier to work with, and then I'm like, okay, cool. Like, like, let's see what someone else thinks. Well, Tim Houlihan 31:50 give us an example of you mentioned confirmation bias. Can you give us an example a real world you're in a meeting, you're having a conversation, you're presenting some ideas, when does of psychological bias come to the forefront of the discussion? Alexis Mook 32:10 Yeah? Yeah. It's sometimes it's tough because sometimes it's from a source that is powerful and important, and often told no. So sometimes I can't call it out, depending on the situation. Like, I can. I have a pretty big like, I have a pretty strong backbone. Like, I I'll tell someone how it is. Not all researchers are that way. Sometimes I'm like, I've told some of my researchers, pull me into the meeting, and I'll yell at them for you, like, so, but it will be like, there, there was this product, and it was an acquisition. So this guy, like, literally built it from the ground up. It was his baby, and he was just any I, luckily, I was not the researcher on the team. I just worked with one of the researchers on the team, and anything she presented, he just tore apart. And was like, That can't be that way because of this. Like, that can't be that way because of this. Like, like, that's totally wrong because, oh, don't even get me into you talk to the wrong people. That's everybody's favorite thing to say. And I just said the other day, I wish I had $1 every time someone said that in a playback. So like, let me dig into that a little deeper, because that's that is the form of bias is like they're so, so certain in their thoughts of how this project should have played out, that when I'm presenting them research where the people I selected were selected with a screener that we built together as a team. He he came up, they came up with all the questions, like I off. This happened later in my career, but I find this very valuable. You have the PMs pick who you're going to talk to out of the list of people who were qualified, and then you do the study, and then they will still, at the end say, Well, I just don't really think we are talking to the right people. And it's like you only think that because the results did not validate your current thoughts. Like, why don't we take a minute to process, what if this was the reality? What if I did talk to the right people, like, let's, let's imagine this. So that comes up a ton. And, you know, that's just confirmation bias to a T. It's just they're being told something that is conflicting with what they thought they'd hear. You know, yeah, Kurt Nelson 34:37 and it's really interesting when you said, you know, oftentimes people in power and they don't have that voice that's telling them, No, this is that's, that's not right, because that's just how it is. And I see it actually in the work that we do as well. And so it is a common trait, I think in many organizations. I mean, the people do. Tend to move up in the ladder. Are very sure of themselves, and they have very confident and they kind of push their way through many times, which can be very, very good for an organization. It does have its downsides, and those downsides are sometimes when the truth is shown to them, it's hard for them to accept, if it is against what they currently believe. Alexis Mook 35:23 So that's funny. You brought that up. We were just talking about this at lunch the other week, where chicken or egg, I'm like, Do you only get to a high leadership position because you have these traits that are like, I'm dominant and I'm just going to trench forward, and I kind of don't care who I hurt in the way and like, I'm just going to go up to the top. Or do you get to the top, and you have to be that way to like, interact with those even higher than you, and then you like change your personality to become even more like. I know they've said like, they share, like, Would it be, like, sociopathic tendencies or something like that? So funny. We had that conversation at lunch the other day, and I was like, I was like, I feel like it's probably a little bit of both, right? I imagine you probably kind of have some of those traits to begin with, but then they might get bolstered the more and more people around you are bolstering them for you, right? So, yeah, that's, that's funny that you brought that up. Kurt Nelson 36:23 I do love that, because I think there is, that's, it's an interesting conversation, right, to have around lunch table or wherever, and that, that there is probably, it's probably not a chicken or egg, it's probably something that can be, you know, a little bit of both, right? Yeah, there's that aspect Alexis Mook 36:40 of HR and nurture. It's a nature Kurt Nelson 36:43 and nurture kind of component, right? Oh, yeah. Tim will love that. Oh, I'm Tim Houlihan 36:47 always into, always love that discussion. I guess one of the, one of the things that I think our listeners might be interested in hearing about, though, is on a day to day basis. You you have this look on your face. You have a that is joyful, right? You have this sense of happiness about you, like you found your groove. Is kind of what it sounds like. Is that set of assessment you caught me on a good day? Alexis Mook 37:18 Yeah, I will say this move to management, I've really enjoyed, I really love my researchers. They're really cool people. They're very good at their job, which makes my job easy. So, like, having a really good team like this, I think I found my groove in managing, which I've always, I've always sought leadership positions in other organizations I've been in. Like, it's kind of, I'd say that is part of my nature. Like, I don't, I don't think that was something that I never had, but, but, yeah, like, before, prior, like, doing the actual research. You know, there are times, like, for every pro, there's, you know, double edged sword of, like, what I'm getting in applied research that I didn't have in academia. Like, they're flip sides of the coin, right? So, like, yeah, yeah. I don't have to be as theoretical. But then all of a sudden, I'm, like, doing something like that quick and dirty, that kind of, like, is barely researched, just because the stakeholder needs it. And then there's other times where, like, like, teaching people sample size. I'm like, I feel like we should kind of all know this, like, this is kind of important, and then, like I do, sometimes I miss the more meaningful work. So yeah, like, especially being at IBM, especially during the rise of AI, I feel like my work is somewhat impactful, but the work I did at FIU was research to mitigate wrongful convictions. So there's, like, a lot of times I missed that. That was really cool research. It made me feel good as a person, you know. And like I said, it's not that I never getting that at IBM. It's just not as, like, societally impactful, I guess, or I guess you could argue not with with AI coming up, I don't know, but well, Tim Houlihan 39:04 but you're influencing a lot of people. There's a lot of users out there. There are a lot of customers that end up being influenced by your Alexis Mook 39:12 work, right? Yeah, and, and, as I said earlier, like in a quick fashion, right? Like something I, something I, an insight I developed on Friday of the week before could be in the product, like the next Friday, and then people could be using it next week. And I'll say one thing we're trying to get better at, that some teams are really good at this, but instrumentation, so like actually tracking usage from the back end, so clicks, where they went, all that stuff, we you can kind of see the impact of your research when a product is instrumented like that. And that stuff's very cool to me too, but also that's because it's like just more data and numbers that I can play with. So like I said, I'm more on the nerdy number side than some other researchers, but, but, yeah, it's that. Kurt is really cool. And, like I said, the impacts quicker than it would be in academia. So for every pro over there, there's a con over here and all that good stuff, but, but I'll say in general, like, I'm in a really good team right now, so makes my life easier. And I really like helping people, which being a manager is mostly just helping and teaching and get guiding them to be good researchers. So I never wanted to be a teacher, teacher, but I feel like I like this position where I'm more like mentoring from a distance. But yeah, so it's like, yeah, I think, I think I found my groove. Hope for now. Kurt Nelson 40:35 Well, it sounds like we've had conversations with a couple different people on the show about big P purpose versus little P purpose. And it sounds to a degree like FIU is like, there is some big P purpose. It's like wrongful convictions. We're working to do this. But at IBM, it's like we're working with and we're getting to work with these people, and I'm having this mentorship ability and and leading and doing some, you know, it's not, we're not. You are impacting a lot of people with the with the products and different things you're making. But the work that you're really kind of glomming on is, like, I'm making a difference in, you know, the smaller circle of people, would you agree? Or am I? Am I way off base there? Alexis Mook 41:17 No, absolutely. Yeah. That's and I'll say, like, that's when I have a good day, right? Like, when I come home and I'm like, I've had a good day, it's because one of my researchers was having some sort of problem or an issue with a teammate or just needed help with something, and I like taught them, like not taught, but like, guided them in what I thought they should do, and, like, next steps, and then they tell me, like, Oh, that was that made so much sense. Like, you helped me so much. Thank you. Like, like, that's a that's a happy feeling, right? And I kind of get that, like, It's not every day, but like, I get that kind of frequently. And it's even beyond the researchers to, like, my my larger team, we work with design managers, design directors, our VP of design you know, they're really supportive community as well. And you know, like, sometimes they'll come to me and be like, hey, like, your researcher said this, but like, that seems wrong. Like I'm not trying to throw them under the bus, but like, walk me through it. And then I can be like, Well, yeah, you're, you shouldn't be doing the usability test yourself. Like, so, yeah, it's like, it's, we're helping a larger team as well. So there's a lot, a lot of good days, some bad days, you know? But Kurt Nelson 42:35 as is, right, there's always good managing, yeah, Alexis Mook 42:39 it's like, if one of my researchers having a bad day, I end up having a bad day, usually, because I, because I want them to be, you know, happy and effective and like, enjoying their work as much as they can, right? Like I, I don't know if I should say this, but I will, like, I'm a big like you, you live, you work to live, not live to work, right? So, like, I just want to make sure they're, like, having as great of a work experience as they can, while understanding it's just work, right? So I'm constantly telling them to, like, take vacation, which, like, if they, like, on a stressful day, I'm like, like, take Friday off. Like, I just like, please. Like, do not burn out on me. I need you Tim Houlihan 43:23 absolutely. I want to switch to a totally hypothetical question here. Alexis, if you were stranded on a desert island, and let's say, for a year, and you could bring a listening device, but it only had two musical artists on it, which two would you select Kurt Nelson 43:41 their catalogs of music? You get us everything done, yeah, Alexis Mook 43:45 everything they've ever done, yeah, like one song, okay, this is good. This is good. Miley Cyrus. She's an inspiration. I saw her live at ACL, and it changed my life. And let me think, who do I listen to a lot of a whole album too. That's like, that's me digging deep in my brain. I might go blink 182 okay, get a little pop, a little punk, yeah. And they so much music, it would keep me entertained for a Tim Houlihan 44:19 long time. So still variety seeking. Yeah, of course. Of course, it does. I love that. Well. Alexis, it is absolutely a pleasure to have you as a guest of Behavioral Grooves. Thanks for spending time with us today. Yeah, Alexis Mook 44:31 no. Thank you guys so much. It was awesome talking with you. As I said, I've heard podcasts before. I've heard good things through our friends. So yeah, so happy to help you guys out. Thank you. Kurt Nelson 44:51 Welcome to our grooving session where Tim and I share ideas on what we learned from our discussion with Alexis. Have a free flowing conversation and groove on whatever else comes in. To our user interface brains. Yeah, Tim Houlihan 45:04 we are kind of user interface centric, aren't we? Like we're, we're looking for ways to connect with the world and our own user interface, our our hands and eyes and Kurt Nelson 45:16 ears, not where I was going, but yeah, that's okay. I was. Tim Houlihan 45:21 That's, that's how I'm, how are you seeing Kurt Nelson 45:24 it, just seeing it as, like, you know, we're focused outward on people, and our brains are all about the user internally, and how we do that. So, yeah, a little Tim Houlihan 45:37 green man that sits in the back of the brain. And, Kurt Nelson 45:41 yeah, I mean, and you've seen enough Disney movies, you know that there's a little guy inside your head running it. Anyway. I do. Tim Houlihan 45:50 Okay, so where are you on this you want to so I Kurt Nelson 45:56 think we talked about this front right? I think there's, there's a couple different things, and one of the big things is about how confirmation bias really can have a negative impact in any type of UX design work. Right this idea that our preconceived notions Unknown Speaker 46:22 kind of determine Kurt Nelson 46:23 how we view the research that we do, or even the design that we do, and that, I think is really an important piece to take into consideration, and and I loved Alexis components of saying, make sure that you have a third party, unbiased third party, coming in and looking at this stuff, Tim Houlihan 46:45 yeah, it's because we tend to favor information that confirms our own preconceptions, right? It's what helps us go. I mean, I think sometimes confirmation bias has been called like one of the biggest problems of the mother Kurt Nelson 47:01 of all biases, as I like to say, yeah, Tim Houlihan 47:06 as Kurt refers to it as the mother of all biases. But I think it was, it was research from what was it, Lord Ross and leper in 1979 that showed how people, when shown the same data, the same story, that they interpreted differently based on their prior beliefs, and Kurt Nelson 47:26 they interpreted what the paper said and what they took out of it. So if they were, and I can't remember exactly what it was, pro guns versus, you know, gun gun control, and they read the same paper and they said, Oh yeah, see, the paper supports my view, whether that view was like we need to take guns out of people's hands and have more control, or know that we need to have more gun, not necessarily more guns, but less restrictions on guns, and that that is against this thing, same paper, same information. But the way that our brains operate is at a subconscious level, it's actually filtering the information or tainting that information in how we read it, so that those things that support our pre held beliefs actually gets enlarged, gets exaggerated within our brain, those things that are opposed to those pre held beliefs get minimized or shrunk within our brain, thus we get two different interpretations. Tim Houlihan 48:24 So if the product owner is going to say we need to do some research to make sure that this new user interface is going to have the kind of impact that we want, it's really important for that product owner to actually separate the research from the product ownership team, so that the research is done independent of that, so that whatever comes back isn't easily dismissed because it doesn't agree with their priors, or is easily confirmed because it does agree with their priors. Or, Kurt Nelson 48:52 you know, I think Alexis even brought up this idea that, hey, you know, they had a boss who who said, I'm going to determine the participant list of the people that we are going to do this, to kind of do that, and then the results didn't align up with his expectations. And even after that, that was, I think, going back and forth. And so we tend to do these things, and they happen at a level that is below our consciousness at many points, and so we don't realize that it's going on. And so if you ask us somebody, it's like, no, I'm not biased on this, or no, I'm not going to that's not going to impact this, when, in fact, it actually does so. Tim Houlihan 49:33 One of the other things that I like to call attention to, that we want to emphasize here, is this idea of the relationship between overconfidence and power, and that it regrettably all too common to see these two correlated, that the higher you go in the organization, the more power you have, the greater your overconfidence as well. And overconfidence isn't always a good thing. It can get in the way. Of making good decisions, right? So, so I think that this is something that Alexis kind of pointed to. And there was a study by fast sivanathan, Mayer and Galinsky from 2012 that actually showed how power increases confidence more than competence. Power is let me just say that, again, power increases confidence more than it increases competence, Kurt Nelson 50:24 so just more than confidence increases confidence. So, yeah, yes, right. Tim Houlihan 50:29 So the higher you go in the organization, doesn't necessarily mean you're smarter, Kurt Nelson 50:34 you're not more competent, yet you're more confident, confident. And actually the there's an that's an interesting point you make up, because there might be more competent people inside of the organization who have an expertise in this particular line of business, this particular research, whatever it would be, who don't have that same confidence because they don't have the power or the level of authority within the organization, whereas that senior vice president or that President, or even the executive director, will have more confidence, And that is counter intuitive and counterproductive many times, because you're going to overpower right so, and it's hard to speak truth to power if you don't feel confident about it. And the person that you're speaking to is very confident. It's that, as you said, overconfidence can lead to misalignments where I can't be wrong. I'm feel really confident about this, and so you don't take information from others, and so people feel intimidated to speak their truth to you. And then you also have the, you know, confirmation bias coming in then too. So they Tim Houlihan 51:59 play together. So if you are a leader that feels immune to error, this is an opportunity to add some humility to your game and improve the way that you are a leader and improve your decision making because of simply being open to the idea that maybe, in this case, your gut isn't always right, right? Yeah. And Kurt Nelson 52:22 lastly, I mean, we talked about this multiple times, kind of just in passing, but this idea of having a third party be involved for their objectivity, right? Yes, separating design from research, separating the review of findings from the research itself. You know, there's all of this that comes into this, and we all have blind spots. We all have biases that we have that we may not be aware of, and that can be mitigated to a certain degree if we can bring in objective third party people in the right moments. Tim Houlihan 53:03 Yeah, absolutely. Ronan Gilovich and Ross wrote about that blind spot bias really beautifully in a fantastic paper that is just, I mean, Tom Gilovich, Lee Ross, both of those guys were just monsters, and they wrote such great stuff. They asked such questions. Kurt Nelson 53:21 And I love, I love this idea that, I think in that, that study, there was this idea that we can spot the blind spots in other people like that. It's like, oh my gosh, that person, that friend of yours, who is always going through, you know, a new partner. And it's always something that the partner did, and you're looking at them going, Dude, it's you, 10 examples of this. There's one constant, one constant, and that's that's not the partners or anything that they're doing. It's you, right? And that's just a silly takeaway. But I mean, we can see it in others, much more than we can see it in ourselves, which goes to the point why we need that third party, because they're going to be able to see past the biases that we have now. They have their own biases, but it's not instrumental into what we're trying to do in some of these things. So so Tim Houlihan 54:16 takeaways, smart organizations and good leaders separate their product ownership from their product research. Those are separate teams, and they're the most successful when they occupy different spaces and different and they have different objectives. Yeah, Kurt Nelson 54:31 yeah. So, so brand product development are separate from the people doing the user research and understanding, because I might No, this is the best way that this product is going to be, and we're going to do No, and the researchers are going No. That's not how people see it, right? That's not how it works. The other piece is that there's an aspect of psychological safety. We've talked about psychological safety a lot, but we need to make sure that people can speak truth to power, that overconfidence. Sense bias, that idea that, hey, the more power I have, the more confident I am be. Have some humility and let research researchers speak truth to power, right? Yeah, Tim Houlihan 55:12 you don't have to just be you might not be wrong, right? You're a leader. You might not be wrong, but you might be wrong. The I might be wrong is a really powerful strengthening device to actually help the team go. Wow, maybe the boss isn't always right, right, Kurt Nelson 55:29 and it's the thinking and bets that we've talked about from Annie Duke. And I love this piece, and I think you we were talking about this right before we got on recording this, as you talked about, I think it was Roy Baumeister, who we had a conversation with, he said the best days are those days where I find that something I thought about was wrong, and I now know that there's a truth to it, this idea of disagreeing with your own prior beliefs, so your own perspective, that's a shift in mindset. And if you can have that shift in mindset, I think that's a really great piece of saying, I don't want to be right about my past. I want to be right about what's right now. I want to be correct. What was it that would you rather be right or know the truth? I think was that what Annie said something along those lines, and let's know the truth, right? Yeah. Tim Houlihan 56:20 Alexis also kind of challenged us in this area of thinking about mill managers sort of bear this burden of being the translators, like they have to carry this message up the line. And I think that that's a hard part of the job, but it's also an important part of the job, and that if they they might go about doing that by having, you know, saying, well, we've got the evidence. Here's we use these structured interview questions. We structured, we avoided leading questions. We set this up in a very clinical manner, and so we ended up collecting really good data. And you know, if you do have questions about how to have those difficult questions with your bosses, just want to recommend the book crucial questions. Fantastic team of writers put that together. And crucial questions is a really crucial conversation. Kurt Nelson 57:12 Yes, thank you. Crucial Conversation going, I've never heard of the crucial questions book. Is that No, cool, yeah. Do you want to have conversations? Yeah? You want Tim Houlihan 57:21 to prep yourself for having those tough conversations with your boss. Crucial Conversations is a great book to get you ready. Kurt Nelson 57:28 Yeah? So Tim, I think we can wrap this up and again, reiterate this, right? What struck me most is that I don't care how well meaning you are as a leader, that there is a number of things that unintentionally derail your good intentions, and that might be the you know, you might be really good at your job, but you're holding too tightly to your own expectation, your own belief about what Things should be. Tim Houlihan 57:59 Yeah, Alexis made this crystal clear also, that it's really about research methodology. It's not just about research methodology, that's right, exactly. It's about human behavior. Yeah, right. Ultimately, it's really about human behavior. And so the more that we build systems that recognize our biases, the more effective our teams and our organizations will Kurt Nelson 58:19 be Yeah, because I can tell you that you know, with you and me, our methods for research are Yeah, yeah. Make this this good. Here we go. All right, so if you're a leader, if you're a designer, or if you're just someone who cares about doing really good work, pause just a second. Just take a couple breaths and ask yourself, am I listening to the data, or am I just looking for validation that I'm right? And we want to make sure that you're listening to the data, and lastly, want to encourage you to listen to the data, or maybe listen to your heart. Oh, what would this be, Tim, if I asked you to check out our YouTube site and not just listen to us, but get to see our ugly bugs. If you haven't already, you can do your own research and say, Do I like the YouTube channel better than I like the just in my headphones. Do I like seeing Tim and his big old smile and Kurt's bald head? What is that? What we might lead you to say, I think I'd rather just Tim Houlihan 59:32 read the newsletter. It might lead you to just saying, I'm just going to subscribe on substack because that's enough for me, Kurt Nelson 59:41 or, or, or maybe it just means I'm going to join the the groove community, the behavioral group community on Facebook, because, you know, I can interact, but I don't have to hear their voices, nor do I have to see them. But we get I can actually have a conversation. We do. It's I love the. Facebook community, and I love how it's expanding and how we are having conversations and reply response pieces that are going on and there, it's fantastic. Absolutely, absolutely. All right, so if this episode sparked something in you, we hope that you'll take some insight from our conversation with Alexis and go out there and find your group. You. Transcribed by https://otter.ai